Meta: Is Sam the failure Dean claims he is?

[brightly_lit]

An lj friend brought up an awesome point in a comment. It’s been said before that Show seems to be ‘Sam’s story told through Dean’s eyes,’ which inevitably brings up the question of Dean as a supremely unreliable narrator, because as this friend (indiachick) said, “Most of what we know of Sam comes from Dean. Do we know what music he likes or what stuff he'll put in his own room if he even has one in the bunker? Is it ever stressed what he feels about the whole Dean/Purgatory thing, or how he feels post Cas healing him in S7?”

If Dean really loves Sam so much ... why does he know so little about him, even down to the question of, as brought up in 9.01, whether he wants to live and why? How could Dean have spent an entire year with him (S8) and never bothered to learn what was really going through Sam’s head all that time (as it was finally revealed in “Sacrifice”)? How could Sam have confessed to Dean that he “found something” that really meant something to him (Amelia), and Dean’s only response is fury at his “betrayal”? It’s not like Sam wouldn’t tell him if Dean asked; it’s just that Dean doesn’t really want to know. Why? Because Dean wants things the way he wants them. He wants the brother he’s always wanted, and any way in which Sam fundamentally differs from Dean’s idealized version of the ‘perfect brother’ is in Dean’s view one of Sam’s many “failings.”

So let’s go into the question of whether Sam has ever really failed Dean, because since probably S4, I’ve been niggled at by Dean’s, seemingly the show’s, and also seemingly the fans’, perception that Sam has ‘failed Dean.’ Dean generously provided Sam with a long list of ‘confession topics’ in “Sacrifice,” which was really a list of personal grievances against Sam (and one additional projection, among so many, that was actually Dean’s doing--the mean thing he did to a girl in 6th grade--which was hilarious but illuminating about Dean’s character). I’ll start with Dean’s list, then address a few others besides. You can tell me if I missed anything.


Going to Stanford

I wrote a story that begins as Sam arrives at Stanford which will tell you a lot about how I see this, but (as addressed in that story), in what world is a kid finding a way to go to a well-respected college without money and with basically every card stacked against him a failure? The world in which Dean didn’t get what he wanted, I guess. The world in which Dean feels he doesn’t have the option of doing what he wants with his life, and so seeks to deprive Sam of the same thing. What about what Sam wanted? Who is to rate hunting higher than education, or for that matter, higher than one person’s dreams? You might be able to say stopping the apocalypse was more important, but at the time they had no inkling that this was a part of their future; they were just killing wendigos and werewolves and FULLY AWARE that there were plenty of other hunters out there doing the same. Dean harbors resentment over feeling like Sam abandoned him and his dad, but who would Sam have betrayed if he’d abandoned himself, his true desires and values? Sam had a difficult choice to make--an almost impossible choice: himself or his family--and he made it ... and has never truly been forgiven.


Releasing Lucifer from hell

This one always gets me, because of course Dean was the one who broke the first seal, and Sam was the one who broke the last, giving them equal responsibility, which Dean nearly always neglects to mention when engaging in his frequent pastime of finding fault, particularly with Sam. Who can blame Dean for breaking on the rack? Killing Lilith was a choice Sam didn’t have to make, so maybe you could blame Sam a little more on those grounds ... except inasmuch as Dean helped drive him to it, all the angels and all the demons were pulling strings to make sure it happened, and Dean was 100% on the killing-Lilith bandwagon right up until Cas reveals to him that it’s the last seal, which Sam could not have known. Rather, Sam was willing to make extreme personal sacrifices to make sure to do away with the demon who sent Dean to hell, which leads us to ...


Ruby, and getting hooked on demon blood

I say much more on this in this story, but let’s state a few facts, shall we? 1) Circumstance repeatedly more or less forced Sam to use the abilities his demon-blood addiction gave him just to keep him and Dean alive to keep fighting another day, not to mention, 2) Dean HELPS Sam dose up on demon blood in the S5 finale in order to try to overcome Lucifer, so Dean is hardly a paragon of making the ‘right choice’ no matter the circumstance, himself. Selfishly, Dean stands by and allows Sam to harm himself in this way when it benefits him/them, then turns around and mercilessly shames and criticizes Sam for it the rest of the time. Finally 3) Sam isn’t lazing around enjoying his addiction; he’s trying his best to do the right thing at great personal cost--the costs of his addiction being all too obvious to him all along.

Did he make the wrong choice and trust the wrong person? Sure, just like Dean has, and Cas has, and everyone has. Sam made the best, bravest, and smartest (not to mention, most self-sacrificial) choice he could at every juncture, based on the information he had, just as Dean did, so why is it a failure on Sam’s part and not on Dean’s? And let’s not forget, if the accusation is that Sam’s weakness or failure was addiction, what about Dean spending a few seasons (including S4) as a high-functioning alcoholic? Which is the kind of double standard Dean has for Sam that leads him to accusing Sam of being weak and a failure for the exact behaviors Dean regularly engages in. And why did Sam wind up in Ruby’s clutches to begin with? Because he was so broken over the loss of his brother, just as Dean loves him to be, judging by how often he’s harangued Sam over not looking for him in S8, and his straightforward declaration in “Clap Your Hands If You Believe ” that he should be “suffering” when he has cause to be worried for Dean’s safety.


“Being soulless”

Okay, this one just makes me laugh--like ‘being soulless’ is something to apologize for. It’s a state of being, not a choice in any case, but particularly in Sam’s case. Did any decision of Sam’s lead to that state? No. If Dean insists on laying blame, it lays entirely with Cas, who kindly attempted a rescue of Sam from the box and accidentally left a most important piece behind. Sam had nothing to do with it; he only suffered from it.

But let’s do go into how “wrong” Sam’s soullessness was. Crowley incisively noted, near the end of S8, the trail of destruction the Winchesters leave everywhere they go in the name of trying to save lives. It could probably convincingly be argued that they might even be responsible for more deaths due to their interference, not counting averting the apocalypse, than they are for lives saved. Soulless!Sam lacked morality, but his goal was the same: saving lives. Unburdened by the incredible weight of the baggage of Sam and Dean’s combined guilt and sense of personal responsibility for anything going wrong anywhere, although some innocent lives were lost (heck, soulless!Sam killed some of them himself), given his capacity for logic and weighing the collateral damage versus the benefits, not to mention his inhuman efficiency, I think it’s quite likely that he saved more people than he or Dean do while adhering to their own, increasingly questionable, moral code.


Not looking for Dean

Okay, they say they’ll keep going into this matter, but let’s just have a little look at this as it currently stands, shall we? Sam and Dean had an agreement ... just like they had an agreement when Sam took Lucifer into the box ... which Dean adhered to. Exactly like Sam, Dean spent a year with a woman in which he experienced a fulfillment different from any he’s ever known, and Sam did not begrudge him this--in fact, Sam insisted Dean get that for himself. Two years later, Sam’s weeping in a church and ready to die because he believes Dean when he constantly tells him he’s a failure, his worst failure being this ‘betrayal’ he will never let Sam live down, which wasn’t a failure at all--just Sam trying to have for himself the thing he was willing to suffer eternal torment to let Dean have.

Personally, the shittiest thing I’ve seen Sam do to Dean was throwing the wrapper in his room at the bunker just when Dean had gotten it all perfect. It’s infantile, pointless, destructive, and just plain mean, even if it’s a small thing. Yet, if Sam is continually emulating his older brother, it was an unsurprising choice, because that’s something DEAN would do any old time.

All of which has led me to believe (and I get the sense the show is on the same wavelength) that Dean, on whatever level, is fully aware that it isn’t Sam who has failed, it’s Dean, who has not only failed at least as much as Sam has, but who has also failed Sam by causing Sam to truly--falsely--believe he’s the failure between them to such a degree Sam wants to die to let Dean proceed unfettered by the “burden” he’s made Sam believe he is. It was immensely satisfying to see Sam finally get some kudos for all he’s accomplished, from Death no less. It was agony to see Charlie thank DEAN for averting the apocalypse, when it was SAM who made that terrible sacrifice, only to turn to Sam to offer her condolences on his “lack of luck with the ladies.” Dean, and so many other characters, seem to have come around to believing it was somehow Dean who deserves credit for averting the apocalypse, when Dean’s main contribution was simply being willing to let Samifer beat the living shit out of him. (Actually ... that often seems to be Dean’s main contribution, but that’s for another meta. ;-) ) Bobby and Cas both died for it; Dean just took the beating. Not that it was small or unnecessary; just that it’s not the same as getting tortured by Lucifer for over 100 hell years.

Stories where a character is purely evil and simply has to be defeated bore me. Dean is not the antagonist--he’s one of the protagonists, and arguably the POV character! No one could deny Dean’s real, abiding, even all-consuming love for his brother. Although Dean is really good at remaining in denial even when Sam says stuff straight out like what was said in the church at the end of “Sacrifice” (can’t wait to see whether they follow up on Sam pouring his heart out in future episodes!), Dean--if he weren’t drunk or hell-bent on hunting or engaging in purely defensive behavior--would be appalled if he really allowed himself to process the depth to which he’s inadvertently managed to hurt and damage Sam. He never meant to--he’s flawed and adorable and maddening and all twisted up and damaged himself--but it happened.

I love this, not just because of all the delicious angst it yields for the fans (since this kind of thing can be most enjoyable in fiction, even if in life it sucks beyond measure), but because it reflects a real dynamic between people that occurs all too often. It could be summed up by saying it’s the archetypal battle humans have waged all along, between ESTJs and INFPs, Democrats and Republicans, brothers and sisters, men and women--that is, between people with opposite perspectives with opposite beliefs and the way each is inadvertently hurt by the other, no matter how much they may love one another.


Edited to add:

So, I DID miss a couple of important items from the list that multiple people brought up in the comments, so I’ll address them now.


Sam drains an innocent girl to get strong enough to battle Lilith

Not Sam’s finest moment, for sure, but this is the way I see it: Sam truly and fully believed that killing Lilith was the secret to stopping the apocalypse. He and Dean--mostly Dean--have both sacrificed people to the end of fulfilling their goals, most notably Dean attempting to kill Mrs. Tran in order to kill Crowley, and offering up Henry to Abaddon with the understanding that he might very well be killed, in order to stop her. One of the benefits of Sam drinking demon blood was that it allowed him to save the people the demons inhabited, whereas Dean’s favored method of dealing with demons was killing them, along with the people they inhabited, with the demon-killing knife, so the innocent girl was no worse off than if Dean had gotten his hands on her. In fact, Sam saved a lot of lives, compared to Dean, as he walked that harrowing path all season.


Abandoning Kevin

This was probably the most shocking choice Sam has made (not to mention out of character), especially since he knew exactly where Kevin had been taken (with Crowley), while he had no idea where Dean and Cas had gone. I’m glad people brought this up, because thinking it through, I think I understand better where Sam’s headspace was during the time Dean was in purgatory, which is to say, completely defeated. Hopefully they’ll go into it more in the show. It could certainly be argued that that’s no excuse, but since the subject is whether Sam has failed in ways Dean hasn’t, I have to say, I thought Dean failed Kevin far more outrageously (and abusively) through S8 than Sam did by simply leaving him to his own devices. (Ohh ... or maybe Sam was starting to think, as Crowley said, that they actually did more harm than good. Sam's cross to bear has always, after all, been that he feels like anyone he gets close to dies, which certainly seemed to have come to pass in the S7 finale--EVEN DEAN--so he felt like Kevin was better off without his involvement.) Kevin surely felt better off on his own on the run than he did when the Winchesters came back into his life and Dean threw him at Garth, bullied him into doing the work of translating the tablet for them, harangued him continually to work faster--“helping out” by buying him stimulants when he knew full well that Kevin was falling to pieces, and also failed to keep him safe, seeing as how Crowley still got his hands on him and was a breath away from killing him when Metatron finally saved his ass. Meanwhile, they’re sitting around in the perfectly safe bunker in comfort, knowing how Kevin is suffering where he is, and Dean only gets around to noting they should have brought him there, too, when he believes it’s already too late.


And thank you for all the thoughtful, substantive comments--I’m looking forward to responding to them, although it might take me a while to get through them all as thoroughly as I’d like ...

Comments

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

"Dean...would be appalled if he really allowed himself to process the depth to which he’s inadvertently managed to hurt and damage Sam. He never meant to...but it happened."

My intitial reaction to your meta was that it was another Dean-bashing one until I got to the above quote, which I completely agree with, and wish the darn show would deal with!

[brightly-lit.livejournal.com]

No, I couldn't bash Dean!! I love my Dean, flaws and all, I just felt like another perspective needed to be out there than Dean's (since poor Sam doesn't seem to have the heart or belief in himself to defend himself properly).

I'm DYING for the show to deal with it, too!

[ndmzero.livejournal.com]

Er, I'd add this to the list - Sam abandoned Kevin. A teenager who Dean and Sam promised to protect.

I'll forgive Sam for not looking for Dean. As you say, they had talked about that.

I blame him for abandoning an 18-year old to Hell's King's care because he couldn't be bothered to answer his phone because he was having too much fun. I'd say that's the shittiest thing I've seen Sam do.

I'm not overly impressed by the fact he DRANK an innocent woman's blood to be strong enough to kill Lilith/release Lucifer even if he was foolish enough to be fooled by Ruby - but the fact that he was an idiot doesn't mean he was evil per se. And Dean has certainly been equally as foolish, without perhaps the same cataclysmic results. Starting the apocalypse (without any warning) isn't quite the same thing as DEMANDING to finish the apocalypse regardless of the number of warnings/red lights/screaming "STOP" messages you've received.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

Sam didn't abandon Kevin because he was having too much fun. It was because he just couldn't do any of it any more.

[cherry916.livejournal.com]

Foolish to believe Ruby? That's insulting to Sam AND Ruby. Ruby was smart. She spent a year wrapping Sam around her finger, getting Sam to trust her, hell even DEAN in S3 began to rely and trust her.

You have to remember, Sam was so far gone when Dean died that he was desperate, depressed and suicidal. He was on a mission yet he had absolutely no focus. He was sloppy and drunk all the time then comes Ruby, a familiar face, telling Sam things that Dean would say, promising Sam things that Sam wanted. Ruby was a lifeline and Sam grabbed hold. To Sam, and at the moment, that wasn't foolish it was smart. We didn't know Ruby was truly evil until later on. Sam didn't either and once she got him addicted to her blood he was definitely more susceptible. to her manipulation. Both the angels and the demons were manipulating Sam and Dean.

Was Sam foolish? I don't think he was. I think he was trying to survive. However, he definitely made mistakes alone the way.

Besides Sam and Dean were BOTH demanding to stop the apocalypse. Dean and Sam had the exact same goal in mind the only difference is Dean had an angel to tell him the ending, Sam didn't. Dean specifically locked Sam up in the panic room so HE could kill Lilith. I don't think the angels really cared. It would be Dean or Sam killing Lilith and breaking the last seal. Just like the demons didn't care whether it was John or Dean who broke the first.

[brightly-lit.livejournal.com]

I agree with the other commenters on this comment, but I'm glad you brought up Kevin and the S4 finale, because those are important points, and I edited the original post to address them.

I've been ruminating on the question of Sam demanding to finish the apocalypse. I agree Dean had no idea breaking on the rack would start the apocalypse, and it was indeed rather maddening to see Sam forge ahead despite warnings and "stop" messages, but I would argue that Sam and Dean have ALWAYS had to forge ahead despite warnings and "stop" messages, so that wouldn't deter Sam the way it might another person ... as well as that Sam was being peppered by just as many "go" messages, including the angels altering Dean's voicemail to have just the effect they hoped it would have on Sam ....

Thanks for commenting.

[kitap.livejournal.com]

Dean might have left Sam in the Pit while he was with Lisa but he was also looking for ways to get him out. Sam was simply turning his back on Kevin whom he saw Crowley kidnap and living it up with Amelia and the dog. What exactly he thought had happened to Dean is still debatable.

Sam has yet to forgive Dean for what Dean said while possessed by the ghost in Southern Comfort; Dean holds a grudge for a while and forgives and goes on- just as he has been willing to let Sam go. Dean might not like Sam's going to Stanford but he left him alone there and would have waltzed right out of his life again if Jessica hadn't been killed. He left Sam for good- he thought- after Citizen Fang.

Personally I like both brothers but they're both flawed. And Dean sees that much more than Sam.

[brightly-lit.livejournal.com]

That's funny--I see Dean as the one who holds grudges for much longer than Sam (he is still bringing up Ruby, after all). I think we just have really different perspectives on the characters--I think Sam very much took what Dean said in Southern Comfort TO HEART, but I don't think it was a lack of forgiveness. Sam did say that's the sort of thing he spent most of his time confessing/asking forgiveness for in "Sacrifice," so it's more that he feels bad about it than being angry about it still.

Oh, but I would agree that after a while Dean stops talking about it while Sam never forgets ... but I don't see that as a lack of forgiveness, more as Sam being aware of issues between the brothers that should really be thoroughly talked out and resolved but that Dean refuses to talk through.

But I'm totally with you--I love both them boys, flaws and all.

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I agree with pretty much all of this. Disclaimer: I love Dean so, so much, but I am a Samgirl at heart.

I've read before that it's a show about Sam told from Dean's POV, and that makes a lot of sense, because as you say, most of what we know about Sam is through Dean's filter. And maybe that's why some fans believe that Sam is a failure who lets Dean down - because that's what Dean believes, at least part of the time.

I think Dean is so hard on Sam partly because many things are black and white for him. He almost has a Madonna/whore complex when it comes to Sam, except that both roles are fulfilled by one person. Sam is so valuable that Dean would die for him, but Sam is such a disappointment that Dean will never forgive him.

Does Dean really not know Sam? Or is it that he disregards what he knows? Before he's dragged to hell, his last instructions to Sam are to remember what Dad and I told you. In other words, to keep hunting, even though he knows how Sam feels about hunting. Even though he knows Sam didn't really want to hunt with him, let alone do it on his own. He knows he can't function as the surviving brother under those circumstances. Why does he think Sam can? Why is he surprised and hurt when Sam fails? (Sam, on the other hand, instructs Dean to go find Lisa. Is it because he knows this will be good for Dean, or is it because its what he would want?)

And yes, as much as I love Dean, it makes me crazy when he blames Sam for things he shouldn't be blamed for - like being soulless! For God's sake, Dean. I think that had to come from a spiral of feeling betrayed by everything else..and yeah, it's kind of Dean's thing, I guess, to throw himself on the pyre and then feel hurt that no one actually deserves or appreciates him.

But, while he doesn't really say this explicitly (I think), Dean's problem with Lilith isn't that Sam killed her, it's that Sam killed her in cooperation with Ruby after Dean made it a "me or her" decision.

And yes, credit for saving the world/raising Lucifer bothers me too (I had address it a tiny bit in a fic as well).

Good discussion!

[brightly-lit.livejournal.com]

I'm loving all the thoughtful insight it's brought up, and all the conversation it's fomented!

And maybe that's why some fans believe that Sam is a failure who lets Dean down - because that's what Dean believes, at least part of the time.

Yes, exactly, and that's what drives me crazy about it. Just 'cos Dean says it's true don't mean it is. I was seeing fans saying stuff about how 'mean' Sam is to Dean, and I just had to put another perspective out there. Just like you, I love Dean to death, but I am a Sam!girl to the end.

He almost has a Madonna/whore complex when it comes to Sam, except that both roles are fulfilled by one person.

Oy, I LOVE this! Yes, yes!

He knows he can't function as the surviving brother under those circumstances. Why does he think Sam can? Why is he surprised and hurt when Sam fails?

These are great questions, and very illuminating about Dean, because I would say that Dean tries to make Sam do what he can't and doesn't want to because Dean has spent his life trying to force himself to do the impossible and is forever disappointed in himself when he doesn't live up to his father's impossible expectations. It's only natural, if sad, that he would project the same thing onto Sam.

I'd be interesting in having a gander at this fic where you addressed it (glad I'm not the only one who was bothered by that).

(Sam, on the other hand, instructs Dean to go find Lisa. Is it because he knows this will be good for Dean, or is it because its what he would want?)

Hmm, I like this question, too. The sense I always get about Sam is that he has an intuitive understanding of what's good for them (like, you know, talking stuff out, which seems anathema to Dean). I think on a level, though Dean would never believe it, Sam wants Dean to be happy even more than Dean wants Sam to be happy, and yeah, Sam knows how that could be accomplished.

Thanks for such a great comment.

[cuddyclothes.livejournal.com]

During season 5, it constantly bothered me that no one brought up that Dean had started the apocalypse by breaking the first seal. It would have made for some great fights later on. To be fair, Sam did beat the shit out of Dean and leave him to go on his quest to kill Lilith...by that time we were seeing the transition of Sam from man to monster. (Poor guy never gets to be himself for fiveminutes!

Dean blaming Sam for losing his soul and not telling Dean kind of makes sense, if you look at it from the point of view that Sam knew he was "different"--and therefore much better. That's why he tried to act so much like regular Sam until it all fell apart. But of course Dean sees it as a betrayal rather than something that's not Sam's fault.

Dean loathes himself, and needs someone to blame. And Sam is always there, ready to take the verbal beatings. A lot of their fights revolve around the issue of who's "stronger" than the other one. I think that's an alpha male trait of the writers (and playing to the show's primary audience).

As for him not looking for Dean, even though the Amelia flash-backs sucked donkey balls, it made sense in the larger picture. Dean and Castiel vanish; Kevin vanishes; and everyone they know is dead. I agree with Sam on this one:
DEAN
So you just turned tail on the family business.

SAM
Nothing says "family" quite like the whole family being dead.

And then it turns out that Kevin has been alive and on the run. Dean blames Sam for not picking up the phone. It's a mistake, not an intentional disregard for Kevin's safety. But Dean's so full of pissed-off that Sam could fall on his knees and beg for forgiveness and Dean would still feel he was betrayed.

One of the episodes that shows the contrast in their internal lives is the one where they die and go to Heaven. Each one's "best memories" are polar opposites. All of Sam's involve getting away from his family. What Sam remembers as a great moment (going to Stanford) Dean remembers as "the worst night of my life!" What Dean remembers as a great moment is the two of them sneaking away from their dad and playing with fireworks. Dean watches Sam dancing in the fireworks and you know that this is one of the peak experiences of Dean's life.

"You chose a demon over me!" Yeah, that's true. But Dean didn't bother listening to what Sam's reasoning was. Bobby had said not to push him away, but that's exactly what Dean did.

That was why I was so glad that Bobby, and then Death, affirmed Sam's having saved the world. Bobby might have been Sam's own inner voice. It showed that on some level, Sam knows what he's accomplished.

I can't remember the episode, but wasn't there one where Dean told Kevin that you take the shitty feelings, "you stuff it all down and you let it out with violence and alcoholism." (paraphrase)

Hope this isn't too off-topic.

[ladyapple27.livejournal.com]

The meeting with Death in the cabin occurred in Sam's mind, so Death's "well-played" may have come from Sam himself, which isn't a bad thing. He should be proud of the good things that he's done.

Over the years, Dean has started to see himself in a better light; he doesn't hate himself the way that he used to. His healing started with the dream conversation with himself in "Dream a Little Dream of Me." Remember that he told his self that he didn't deserve the crap that John dumped on him, and he didn't deserve to go to Hell. Purgatory helped him focus and embrace his mission as a hunter. Unlike the awkward boy who dismissed his own social skills in "Scarecrow," he's come to realize that he's worthy of friendship and has acted on it, forming ties with Benny and Charlie.

Sam has spent too much time not being Sam to grow as a person and make friendships. If the writers would let Sam be Sam for long enough, Sam's character could develop. Sam's apparent lack of personality and motivation has more to do with the writers and plot lines than Dean.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

One of the reasons I can't stand Krissy is that when her Dad was missing, Sam breaks out of his mourning for Bobby to come help her. He offers himself to the monster to save her Dad's life. Dean shows up only because Sam has gone missing. Then Krissy thanks DEAN and doesn't say boo to Sam. That really ticked me off.

I don't think Sam has failed Dean either. Dean takes things very personally and doesn't seem able to separate Sam doing something because Sam sees it as right from Sam doing something to hurt Dean. Betrayal has to have some component of not only letting someone down, but doing it to at least in part to let them down. I think Sam has tried very hard to be a good brother, but it is extremely hard to meet all of Dean's needs from him as a brother.

[ladyapple27.livejournal.com]

Krissy's reaction to Sam and Dean's help goes back to the thing that I mentioned above: over the years, Dean has developed social skills, while Sam has languished, constantly being possessed, hooked on demon blood, soulless, or mentally ill after the wall come down. Now we have Ezekiel riding shotgun in his mind.

As for what Dean needs from Sam, Sam is aware of Dean's insecurity, and, like many younger siblings, uses it to manipulate his brother. He's OK with it as long as he can get what he wants, even if it just reinforces Dean's weaknesses. He's human.

Dean's human,too, arguably the most human character on the show. He gets angry, he feels betrayed, he acts out, but he also forgives, he's also generous, and he's also willing to sacrifice. If Dean never got angry with Sam at all, it would be a sign of serious mental issues far beyond the ones that we've seen.

Would it be realistic if Dean hadn't been pissed off about Sam failing to look for him and leaving Kevin at loose ends while he shacked up with Amelia? No. Given what we know about Sam, was it in character for him to force Dean to choose between him and Benny? Yes. Sam wants a normal life, yet he's possessive of Dean. It makes sense because Dean's world has always revolved Sam, even as Dean has expanded his circle of friends and allies. I'd like to see Sam have a chance to grow, make more friends, and quit jerking Dean around, even if Dean is party to the manipulation.

It would be awesome to see Sam use his puppy dog eyes, bitch faces, strategy, and big brain to manipulate someone or something other than Dean. Seriously, Sam on the loose would scare the Hell out of every evil thing in the world.

[morganlucas41.livejournal.com]

First of all, I don't necessarily think these things can be considered "failures" of Sam, but I think that along the way, he (and every other character) have certainly made their share of mistakes.

I will say that I'm totally with you on being flabbergasted that Dean included "being soulless" as one of Sam's mistakes. The entire point of that whole SL was that it wasn't Sam. That just felt like shitty writing to me, TBH, but if Dean really meant it, then that sucks.

However, I disagree completely on Dean and Sam's years spent apart. Dean went to stay with Lisa - ONLY because Sam asked him to. And he didn't keep his promise - he continued to search for a way out and the second Sam came back, Dean went with him. Sam just...didn't look for Dean. Period the end. That IS a betrayal. I will NEVER understand that decision of Sam's and I really wish the story had done a better job of explaining it to us.

On the Apocalypse thing. I always hear that Dean broke the first seal and Sam broke the last one. But I'm just gonna say it, it's not the same thing. Dean was tortured for thirty years in Hell before he broke and unknowingly broke the first seal. Sam had no way of knowing that killing Lilith would be a bad thing, true, and I do think that Sam always had good intentions. But he DID drink demon blood and he did drink an entire innocent woman dry, and he trusted Ruby, and he lied to his brother. I'm not saying Dean was blameless in that situation but Sam DID make mistakes, and in the end, those conscious decisions led to Lucifer being let out. It was partially Sam's fault and more directly and consciously his fault than it was Dean's. Now, I happen to think that Sam redeemed himself for his mistakes when he jumped into the Cage, and that shouldn't continually be brought up against him.

But I think the reason Dean keeps bringing these things up is that deep down, he does feel betrayed. And maybe Sam does, too, and the point is that they need to talk about these things. Like going to Stanford. No, Sam wasn't wrong to try to go to college and lead a normal life. But Dean perceives Sam as abandoning HIM. The two of them need to talk about that issue and sort it out, otherwise it will always be a point of contention between them. Like everything on this list, frankly.

[eilinni.livejournal.com]

Dean's statement that he was looking for ways to get Sam out is dubious at best. In all the time he spent with Ben and Lisa, he never contacted Bobby or Castiel which would have been the first place to start if he was serious about an attempt to get him out. Perhaps, like Sam, Dean was stuck between what he wanted to do, and what he needed to do. And while he wanted to try and get Sam out, he needed to keep Lucifer in the Cage.

[fight-thedead.livejournal.com]

I feel like this is can be a difficult topic to discuss because there is a difference between failing someone and being a failure. As you touched upon, it’s all perception –which means both parties can have justifiably reasons for thinking the way they do.

Sam leaving for Stamford is a perfect example of that. Yes, Sam did what he needed to do for himself. As things go, he was looking out for the most important person he should be been – himself. However, I think Dean does have the right to feel slightly betrayed about this one. It doesn’t seem like it was something handled with tact. More of a bag and ditch. All things considering, it probably couldn’t have gone another way with this family.

But in Dean’s head – he took care of Sammy, sacrificed for Sammy, and then Sammy just up and left them – him. That has to sting.

I think Sam getting hooked on demon blood and releasing Lucifer were failings. But, to be fair, I see them more as personal failures rather than Sam failing Dean. As much as Sam pouted and stomped that he didn’t want Dean to call all of the shots and that Sam wanted an equal say in what they did, I think there’s a part of Sam that is used to being led and probably takes comfort in it because it’s so familiar. So maybe it was only natural that Sam allowed himself to be used by Ruby. She found him at such a vulnerable time in his life, it’s only natural that he leaned on her and formed such an unhealthy attachment. But I think *Sam* should have known better and he failed himself in not knowing better. Especially after Dean and Bobby got involved.

But let’s link this back to Dean. Remember, this is still pretty early on. Before their dealings with Meg and Crowley. They are still riding the coat tails of Azazel and have the mindset that demons are the ‘big bad.’ This isn’t Sam picking a girl over Dean, this is Sam picking everything that they have grown up to hate over Dean (also, Dean still has a long way to go before he starts to realize that they don’t necessarily have to kill all that is supernatural). So, from Dean’s perspective, it was the ultimate betrayal. I will admit that Dean didn’t handle the situation well, but he was overzealous in getting Sam back from the enemy.

I don’t think Sam is any more forgiving, I just don’t think we see that part of him on screen. We see glimpses of it – everything that Sam said about Dean in Asylum, his example of heaven being away from the family, his anger over finding out about Benny, ect. I think there is just as much pent up anger and blame, it’s just not focused on. It would be interesting to have a few episodes based on Sam's POV. We would probably see a deal of this.

I would absolutely love to see Dean sit down with himself and think about the damage he has caused Sam with the veil of protecting him. I imagine him dripping Sammy's hand to stop him from running into traffic but pulling away only to ignore the bruises he caused. If Dean ever does focus on this, I think it will be the cause of his ultimate break down.

[brightly-lit.livejournal.com]

All things considering, it probably couldn’t have gone another way with this family.

So true.

I agree with everything you say about personal failures vs. failing Dean and Dean not being able help but sting as a result. I'm not sure about the question of Sam being no more forgiving, though. As long as Sam were allowed to express himself and be heard and know Dean really felt what he had to say, I think he would forgive instantly, whereas Sam can explain himself hoarse and Dean won't ever let it go. Sam IS willing to talk about it, and Dean ISN'T. That's just Dean being Dean, and talking it out ain't never gonna happen, which is why their relationship is so fraught and so often strained, but I do see that as a fundamental difference between them: Sam would forgive if a way forward were possible, whereas Dean sees the way forward and refuses to walk it for fear of making himself too vulnerable/chick-flick-esque.

It would be interesting to have a few episodes based on Sam's POV. We would probably see a deal of this.

Yes yes yes! That would be so cool.

If Dean ever does focus on this, I think it will be the cause of his ultimate break down.

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE, and I think--maybe, possibly?--the show might ultimately be headed there, which would be a goldmine of angst for us fans.

Thanks for your comment! Sorry it took me so long to respond; RL took over for a while ....

[ladyapple27.livejournal.com]

As much as I love Sam, I take issue with your statement that Soulless Sam hunted to save lives. Instead, Soulless Sam hunted because he liked it and was quick to sacrifice anyone who got in his way. He beat a cop nearly to death at a traffic stop, used Roy as bait for the Arachne, and let Dean be turned by a vampire. It was a game for him.

That said, it was never emphasized that Sam's mind, as well as his soul, was tortured and twisted in the pit. Soulless Sam's mind was damaged, and this, in addition to the lack of his soul, caused his bad behavior. It wasn't his fault; his condition was the result of his sacrifice in Swan Song.

Dean doesn't always insist on getting his way. He gives in if Sam pushes hard enough. A good example is Dean cutting Benny loose because Sam gave him an ultimatum.

Benny, of course, was quick to come help Dean get Sam out of Purgatory, and Sam feels bad about misjudging Benny and upsetting Dean. Sam is basically a good guy and will no doubt make it up to Benny if he ever sees him again.

Siblings bicker, often saying things that they shouldn't and even things that they don't really mean. Like brothers in real life, Sam and Dean have said ugly things to one another, only to be sorry later. As Winchesters, "I'm sorry" is a hard thing to say.

[cherry916.livejournal.com]

Dean has such a shitty view of himself at times that his number one fault is putting everyone he cares about up on this impossible pedastool and when they do something that tarnishes them in anyway (which they WILL always do) Dean finds this as a horrible betrayla that he ultimately grudges over for a very long time.

Sam as well as many other characters, even Benny (I mean "never let me down"? line was a classic example. Dean has a hard time realizing that ultimately Sam is human and he will ALWAYS somehow let him down. It's a given. Humans let people down. I'm sure Dean has let many people down, however, Dean somehow expects better than that from other people.

Because he's a hypocrite? No, like you said Dean doesn't even realize he does this and if he did he would be horrified and ashamed at how much he actually verbally and emotionally abuses his brother (I mean it's all a cycle from John anyway)

Dean loves his brother, no doubt. He would do anything to protect him but his warped idea of Sam and how Sam should be and how Sam really is, is what causes Dean to constantly hurt Sam and since Sam just takes the verbal beatings Dean never has a chance to grow and realize what he's actually doing to his brother. It's a bitter cycle.

[brightly-lit.livejournal.com]

Ah, I love the way you describe it, about the pedastal and inevitable inability to live up to it--I think you're absolutely right.

I'm sure Dean has let many people down, however, Dean somehow expects better than that from other people.

YES, and this gives me an interesting thought on the subject--maybe Dean's self-esteem is SO low that he truly thinks everybody else is automatically better than him? Maybe every time someone disappoints him, it wrecks his faith in humanity a little more, because he realizes more and more that no one is actually so much better than him? Interesting!

It's a bitter cycle.

Well put.

[cherry916.livejournal.com]

Oh, and on the unreliable narrator part.

Dean IS a perfect example of a unreliable narrator. Dean's judgement of Sam is clouded with personal issues and feelings. Therefore, you can't judge Sam and his actions based solely on whether Dean sees it as right or wrong. You have to dig deeper and judge for yourself and try and understand Sam's emotions and feelings before you truly judge anything he does. Unless you do that you aren't really understanding Sam Winchester, instead you're just briefly understanding Sam on the surface. Barely treading anything. That's no way to sufficiently judge a character yet, like you pointed out, we have fans that do?

It makes absolutely no sense but I guess people have gotten so used to 'Dean's word' that they believe it. When in reality, you can't believe everything Dean says. Half of the time it's no accurate it's simply Dean's own insecurities manifesting as anger directed at Sam.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I think this is a great topic for discussion.

There have been many times on the show where there is a kind of moment where Dean delivers his heartfelt speech about his gut reaction and his understanding of what needs to happen. Oftentimes I'll find myself listening to Dean and kind of surprised by Dean's vehemence that's there is only one way to see the options. Most recently, I was rewatching "the Man who Would be King" -- I'm on a bit of a Cas kick right now -- when Dean is telling Castiel what to do. But Dean is really, provably unreliable right there, because he's unaware of the full situation. Castiel KNOWS that Raphael will restart the Apocalypse after he crushes Castiel. It's hard to understand exactly what Dean is proposing.... but Dean has this moral fiber, that once he decides what he thinks is right, he sticks to it like glue.

With Sam I think it all goes back to the original Hunter's Code that Dean learned from John: the idea that they are in fact Warriors, that there is no moral way to get out of the job, that the fate of everyone and everything is on their shoulders. Sam doesn't see it that way, and Dean essentially can't forgive him for that. Dean being willing to sacrifice anything for Sam, means that Dean also thinks that Sam should be willing to sacrifice everything. It's a two-edged sword that ends up hurting them both terribly.

[jensenrick.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, ALL OF THIS! You have laid out pretty much EXACTLY what I've been thinking about Sam, and Dean's perception of Sam.
I'd really love to say to Dean (and a lot of other people too)- just because you got your feelings hurt, doesn't mean that someone else did something wrong.
The college thing- a perfect example. Again it's said, "well I can see why Dean feels betrayed." Well that's all well and good, but Sam didn't do anything wrong. If Dean feels betrayed, that's DEAN's problem, and frankly something Dean needs to work on himself that is long overdue.

[brightly-lit.livejournal.com]

just because you got your feelings hurt, doesn't mean that someone else did something wrong.

EXACTLY.

DEAN's problem, and frankly something Dean needs to work on himself that is long overdue.

SO true. I worry that the writers think they would be out of conflict for the show if they let Dean deal with even a few of his issues, but frankly, I think it would carry the narrative forward better. Eight years of nothing but baggage is too much for anyone to bear, even the fans.

Thanks for commenting, and it's nice to have a new friend!

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I think Dean has really never been able to get to a place inside his own head, where Sam is his equal and partner, not the baby brother his life is dedicated to protecting.

I can hear Dean's inner script very clearly in all the things Dean accuses Sam of as "Failures":

Stanford: Dean is thinking, "Sam left the Hunting life even though he knew all the evil things that were out there, he got Jess killed, ultimately he got Dad killed, and himself, and then I sold my soul for him and triggered the Apocalypse"... ultimately I can't blame Dean for having this self-centered viewpoint when it regards Sammy, even though Dean's attachment to Sam is based on almost a crippling need for his brother, because Sam is what gives Dean's life its purpose.

And I think all the other supposed failures of Sam that Dean tallies up in his head stem from this initial and basic difference : Sam believes that they can leave Hunting. Dean does not believe this. Dean believes that their is no moral way for them to turn their back, knowing what they know. But Sam believes there comes a point where they've done enough. Like a soldier who serves a three-year stint-- it's not that they never served, it's just that they chose to retire, which is perfectly honorable.

I think that Sam and Dean are actually on the same page regarding Sam's "failure" to look for Dean. I will never believe that Sam simply walked away, and I don't think that is what was shown or even implied. If you tally up Sam's total stockpile of resources after they ganked Dick, Sam has diddlysquat. Basically he has his massive brain and the Impala, vs. the King of Hell and the wrath of Heaven. I think that without Dean, Sam couldn't figure out how to fight his way through.... especially with all his other "failures" ringing in his head. I loved the finale of s8 because it showed just how much Sam has internalized all the hurt that Dean has been lobbing at him ever since he came back from Hell in s4 and found Sam addicted to demon blood (why?? because Sam was desperate to get Dean back from hell and save him from Lilith) but really, their split goes back to Stanford, the ultimate "betrayal" that Sam wanted out of hunting whereas Dean couldn't see his way out. But also, Dean sacrificed the safety of the whole world for Sam ... jettisoning the trials and telling Sam that Sam will always come first for Dean. In one way this was Dean's worst failure -- his refusal to let Sam fully purify himself and the world, unto death -- because he can't bear to let his baby brother go. But it might also mark a turning point where Dean sees that he's driven Sam to the point where choosing death feels like his best and only option. Seeing the damage inside Sam's head-- will it open Dean's eyes or give him more "ammunition" because it is another sign that Sam "wants to leave him"?

In pop psych terms, this all stems from Dean's initial loss of Mary. That hurt and abandoned little boy transferred his whole world of love onto Sam, but like a little child, his love for Sammy might never mature to the point where Sam is a good man and a fallible one, like himself. Will Dean ever allow Sam, like he did in s5, to choose his own fate?

CONCLUSION: Dean will never be fair to Sam as long as Sam is the only thing that gives Dean's world its meaning.

sincerely, a whole-hearted Dean girl and resolutely bi bro

[brightly-lit.livejournal.com]

I LOVE THIS COMMENT!! It brings order to things that seemed haphazard and brings up lots of things I've never heard or thought of before in relation to these things.

If you tally up Sam's total stockpile of resources after they ganked Dick, Sam has diddlysquat. Basically he has his massive brain and the Impala, vs. the King of Hell and the wrath of Heaven.

This is a FANTASTIC point.

I loved the finale of s8 because it showed just how much Sam has internalized all the hurt that Dean has been lobbing at him ever since he came back from Hell in s4 and found Sam addicted to demon blood (why?? because Sam was desperate to get Dean back from hell and save him from Lilith)

Yes yes yes, I loved that in S8, too, so much ... and how it shows that even though Sam's usual response is no worse than a sarcastic, "Thanks," it's cutting him deep. Wish Dean could see that, too.

In pop psych terms, this all stems from Dean's initial loss of Mary. That hurt and abandoned little boy transferred his whole world of love onto Sam, but like a little child, his love for Sammy might never mature to the point where Sam is a good man and a fallible one, like himself.

Another wonderful point.

Yet in all the defenses of Dean I see, how people say it's reasonable of Dean to feel these things because of this or that thing he suffered ... what about Sam? Sam ALSO lost a mother, and a father, and on top of that, he was dosed up with demon blood as a helpless infant, and on and on. He's suffered at least as much as Dean but hasn't reacted with the same degree of destructive self-centeredness, blame, and expectation. I took from things he said in 8.23 and 9.01 that Sam feels so thoroughly, horrifically beaten he sees no option but to cease to exist, which is pretty freakin' extreme. At least Dean can still love life enough to fight with everything he has, always, to keep on living, but Sam has been battered beyond the capacity to react, in no small part by his own brother.

I too often feel like because Dean is such a squeaky wheel, his needs are considered and responded to, while because Sam isn't, his are dismissed or he's blamed because he's easier to blame. It was in response to these feelings that I wrote this meta in the first place. Dean is excused, while Sam is judged as to whether he deserves blame or not. What about the blame Dean deserves? If Sam decided to continually harangue Dean for all HIS failures, he'd surely have a list at least as long as Dean's about Sam, but so many people never seem to get that far. Bi bro, 100%. Not just Dean, and not just Sam, but Sam's voice gets lost all too often. (In pop psych terms, perhaps because he was the youngest and never got a say in anything in the first place.)

Will Dean ever allow Sam, like he did in s5, to choose his own fate?

This may be a controversial opinion, but I tend to think this was another mistake Dean made. After all, if so many factors--Dean included--hadn't driven Sam to the point of just longing for death, Sam would OF COURSE want to live and not suffer eternally. After all the b.s. Dean has put Sam through, for the first choice he allows him to make to be THAT of all things .... If Dean is a protective brother, and Sam's never been allowed to make his own decision before, for heaven's sake, don't just let him jump off the cliff. A little advice, a personal opinion, an expression of love, anything. That whole dynamic seemed extra crushing to me in terms of the ongoing implosion of their relationship.

Eee, you gave me so much food for thought, I could go on forever! Thank you SO much for your excellent comment. I'd like to friend you, if that's cool.

[brightly-lit.livejournal.com]

Yes yes yes, a thousand times yes! Exactly: what kind of parent/sibling considers it abandonment for someone to--in a way that does not harm anyone--live his life? Whereas their demands of Sam DO harm him. It's so backward.

Thanks for commenting. :-)

[alleysweeper.livejournal.com]

It looks to me like you are somehow equating Dean's disappointment in some of Sam's actions - or inactions - as him deeming Sam a failure as a human being. And that's just not so.


When TFW went to face down Lucifer it was to return him to the pit. Permanently. They succeeded. Unfortunately, Sam was lost to the pit as well. Dean knew where Sam was and knew there was nothing he could do.
When Dean and Castiel went to Purgatory, they just...disappeared. And Sam did what? Laundry? Read a book? Lunch? He sure as Hell didn't look for Dean. I love that S8 Dean felt he deserved every possible effort to be put forth by Sam into finding him. That he got into Sam's face and declared his own worth after so many years of putting Sam's welfare first. Bravo.

R/e Ruby. Oh, yeah. She stroked that ego but good, didn't she? Would that we all could have a Ruby to blame for our most appalling actions. But then again, Sam made the choices of his own free will. In his arrogance, he chose not to even consider anyone concerns on the path he was taking. Not Dean's. Not Bobby's. Not Pamela's. After all, he was SMARTER and he was STRONGER and he had made up his mind that HE was going to kill Lilith. And he did. Does Dean have reason to be disappointed in Sam for his choices? Absolutely. But more to the point, how does Sam feel about his blood-drinking, nurse killing self?

Sam was looking for absolution when he took on the Trials. Not from what Dean thought of him, but of what he, himself had done. Very admirable and mature. And Dean supported him for the most part, as usual. Then we get to "Sacrifice" and, with what could be his dying breath, Sam lays another guilt trip on Dean for not trusting him and/or having a friend. WTF? Haven't I heard this one before? Yep. Sam pulled the same shit about Ruby.

Dean too often takes the hit when Sam starts speachifying. As much as he wants to be treated like an adult, Sam tends to react like an adolescent when he gets frustrated or things don't go his way.

[toratio.livejournal.com]

I've kind of only skimmed this - I got stuck on Dean's list of grievences ending with the 6th grade thing - to me, that is classic Dean. He knew he'd upset Sam, and he was trying to smooth it over by saying something ridiculous.

I think, maybe, it's not so much that Dean thinks Sam's failed him. He does think that, but I think underneath it all he a) accepts Sam as he is and b) he realises eventually he's being an ass.

Stanford is about jealousy, I think. And about feeling abandoned - I mean, Dean clings to his brother so bad, losing him must've been like losing a limb. And Sam has always had a healthy relationship with his brother, but Dean hasn't. Dean's attachment to Sam is a lot less healthy than Sam's attachment to Dean.

And Dean does come around eventually about Ruby and the demon blood. Ruby was what hurt the most - it was jealousy, again. And the demon blood I think was a lot to do with fear. Dean has always seen things in black and white, while Sam can manage the greys. For Dean, it's either monster or not. But he does eventually tell Sam it wasn't all his fault, admitting he broke the first seal, and that neither of them knew killing Lilith would start the Apocalypse.

I think Sam abandoning Kevin was less a choice and more that he completely lost his shit and ran away. I mean, he was somebody who felt the burden of looking after others for so long, and felt like there was no point any more. I have a lot of sympathy for Kevin, but it's so hard for the Winchesters to relate because it's so long since they've been in his position. They are jaded, cynical, used, abused. I don't think even Sam knows what normal is any more.

I think Dean has done some shitty things to Sam, but I don't think he meant to any more than Sam meant to to him. I think they love each other, but they have no idea how to navigate that, or what it's supposed to mean.

I think part of the reason Dean talks like Sam's a failure sometimes is because he's always put Sam on a pedestal. Go back to season 1 and Sam can do no wrong in Dean's eyes. Stanford is the worst thing he'd done at that point. And I think it's interesting come season 9 that you see that Dean, no matter what, has realised that his brother isn't perfect, but he still loves him.

Thing is, just because you love someone, doesn't mean you don't want to smack them for shit. And I think they both feel like that more than once.

Also, you want to know how Dean feels about Sam, don't look at how he behaves towards or around Sam. Have a look at how he behaves towards others regarding Sam. Sometimes I think he's practicing a kind of misguided tough love.

[brightly-lit.livejournal.com]

And the demon blood I think was a lot to do with fear. Dean has always seen things in black and white, while Sam can manage the greys.

This is all so, so true. Dean got scared even back when Sam first started demonstrating psychic power in S1, even though he was fine with people like Missouri being psychic. When it's Sam, it's different, because anything different about Sam is something eminently threatening to Dean's concept of 'family.'

I have a lot of sympathy for Kevin, but it's so hard for the Winchesters to relate because it's so long since they've been in his position.

Ahh, this is a good point. Also, people who have been through a lot can develop a deep lack of sympathy, a la, "Nobody cried for me so I ain't gonna cry for you," and I think that's a lot of where Dean's "suck it up" attitude for Kevin comes from. I can't help but think Dean sees his younger self in Kevin, and failing being able to feel any sympathy for himself, he's abusing himself by proxy by being so abusive to Kevin.

Thanks for commenting. :-)

[reggie11.livejournal.com]

I always find it incredibly surprising when I read character bashing of Sam. I love both boys but without a doubt Dean is by far the most selfish of the two. He is one of the most unforgiving characters currently on TV as it seems nothing Sam does is ever good enough for him yet he himself messes up all the time. For me it began with him selling his soul to "save" Sam. Even though we found out much later that the angels believed Sam to be inherently evil, I'm almost certain he had not done anything at that stage that would have prevented him from going to heaven when he died. To me Dean not only condemned himself to hell but he also condemned Sam with that act. I've heard many people say that it was a selfless act but I'm convinced of the opposite - even Dean admitted he did it because he couldn't live without Sam. Everything spiraled out of control for Sam from that moment. He trusted Ruby because he was desperate to save Dean from hell, he drank demon blood because he had hit rock bottom with grief and he absolutely broke the last seal unknowingly.

I'm not saying Sam is a saint because he's made some pretty massive mistakes but almost all of them have been with the best of intentions or because he couldn't cope anymore and who could blame him.

I'm not bashing Dean's character but the writers have never allowed Dean to grow and I find that as frustrating as hell. He still blames Sam for everything that goes wrong, he still makes the same mistakes over and over and I can't count the times he's used physical violence against Sam often for things he didn't deserve. Sam has only really hit Dean the time he was hyped up on demon blood and when they were under the influence of the siren and possibly when he was possessed by Meg if my memory serves correctly.

My personal opinion is that Sam is the is the one that is most inherently good and selfless out of the two of them. He was the one that had faith and had it tossed back at him by the angels. Even when he was drinking blood it was so that he could remove demons without killing the host. I don't doubt Dean is a very good man but his abandonment issues also make him an incredibly selfish person. When Sam was struggling with his new powers very early on, Dean's solution was pretty much 'just don't use them' like Sam even had a choice.

Sam has always had the odds stacked against him, from his own mother trading him for John in a demon deal, being infected with Azazel's blood as a baby, being chosen as Lucifer's vessel, having his soul left behind in the cage and Castiel breaking the wall.

I don't think he has ever really betrayed Dean. You made a valid point with the whole purgatory thing with Sam and Amelia versus the cage with Dean and Lisa.

I really do wish that the writers would show Dean realising the extent that he has hurt Sam without ever really meaning to. It's the character growth that Dean needs and is never been dealt with. I don't understand how they can have such a wonderfully fascinating character and not want to develop it as much as they possibly can, there is just so much more scope. There is SO much love between the brothers I want them to take both characters in every direction they can.

Your post is incredibly well thought out and written. Bravo!

PS: I really do love Dean too. Sorry this comment is of epic length, I've been wanting to vent on this for a while ;)

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

Even though we found out much later that the angels believed Sam to be inherently evil, I'm almost certain he had not done anything at that stage that would have prevented him from going to heaven when he died.

Considering that in DSOTM Sam was going to Heaven after he drank demon blood, killed the nurse, and released Lucifer, I think it is pretty certain that he went to heaven after AHBL. He certainly hadn't don anything at that point that was unforgivable or Hell worthy.

Meta Links 2013/10/10-10/16

[livejournal.livejournal.com]

User metanewsmods referenced to your post from Meta Links 2013/10/10-10/16 (http://metanews.livejournal.com/12344.html) saying: [...] , anger that just bleeds out of him." fandom:supernatural Is Sam the failure Dean Claims He is? [...]

late to the discussion, but...

[nicole fitzhugh (from livejournal.com)]

I always wondered about this scene. I had a thought that maybe Dean didn't really believe in the necessity of confession, that it was a joke to him; he was thinking "What does Sam possibly have to confess?" The list of things he said was so outlandish-- confess that *Sam* lost his soul when it was Cas' fault? When Dean consistently excused Sam from all possible fault, including turning Dean into a vamp, during that period, how could he then come back and blame him? That he was joking might explain the whole thing with the girl in 6th Grade that was really Dean's own thing. But of course Sam can't hear anything Dean says about him without thinking that Dean really hates him, because Sam hates himself.