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brightly_litSo, I'm going to bring up a topic that may be fairly controversial, but that has niggled at me since it was introduced in episode 9.01. This may surprise those among you who know me as a Sam!girl (or who took my last meta to mean I'm always in Sam's camp), but I've always been bi-bro, and in this case, I feel compelled to defend Dean ... and judging from the comments I've seen around fandom, am I the only one on his side in this?
I see that many people are, perhaps rightly, declaring that the events of S9 are entirely Dean's fault. Given that the Brothers Winchester have always had the unique knack of finding ways to blame themselves for things they have only tangential connections to, this is pleasant in a way, so that at least this time we're dealing with direct consequences of direct actions rather than mere Winchester guilt and bad self-esteem.
However ... what else was Dean to do? Up against the wall in 9.01, with time running out, he made the one and only choice available to him to save Sam's life. He prayed first to Cas, then to all angels, with the at-the-time reasonable-seeming assumption that at least a FEW of them would have positive intentions toward him and his brother. When Ezekiel was the only responder who seemed even remotely friendly, Dean questioned him closely to try to divine his motives, vetted him through Cas, and still harbored reservations until there was literally no other way to save Sam's life. Thereafter, Zeke had the upper hand and pulled Dean's strings harder by the week, until the disaster we all (plus Dean) knew was surely coming for him arrived and left Dean on the bunker floor whispering Kevin's name.
If he had known what would happen in the end, would Dean even have made a different choice? He probably would have warned Kevin. He would have told Cas. He would surely have tried to find a way to tell Sam (if that would even have helped, since Zeke could apparently simply erase the memories). But would he still have let Zeke into Sam?
I think he would have, since it was his one and only option for saving Sam's life. I think he would have engaged in as much damage control as possible, even trapped Zeke in holy fire, but Dean fights and fights to go on living, doing whatever it takes, and for Dean, that means Sam has to be alive, too, because Dean would far rather die than see Sam die.
So then the question becomes, was it wrong for him to do so? I know many believe it was, saying it was selfish and disrespectful of Dean to disregard Sam's wish to die, if not an outright violation of his consent and his sovereignty. This is a tricky question, to be sure, which I guess necessitates questioning why Sam wants to die, because when I see the fury some fans harbor toward Dean for making this choice, they seem to assume Sam longs for death out of some natural, straightforward desire--he feels like it's his time, he feels he's done enough.
But what if Sam's longing for death is a result of situational depression that might be relieved, the classic "permanent solution to a temporary problem"--or what if it's a result of such disastrous wreckage of his sense of self-worth (as evidenced in "Sacrifice") that he doesn't feel he deserves to live anymore, he believes he does more harm than good, he believes he holds his brother back, all of which amount to mental illness that might be healed? I mean, isn't his longing for death essentially equivalent to suicidal ideation?
Worst of all, in Dean's eyes, is the great likelihood (since the events of 9.01 transpired directly after "Sacrifice," in which Sam said point blank that he wants to die because of things Dean has caused him to believe about himself and their relationship) that Sam longs for death because Dean has treated him so badly and so disrespectfully, abusing his sense of self-worth into utter defeat; at which point would Dean not have a duty to rectify his own mistakes and missteps where his brother is concerned, rather than allow Sam to slip away as a result of them?? Allowing Sam to let go for those reasons under those circumstances would rob Dean of an opportunity to resolve them, relieve him of his responsibility for repairing what he has broken, and would condemn Sam to a death utterly devoid of redemption.
Of course, for the sake of ALL THE ANGST! (and perhaps to drive home to Dean unavoidably the destruction he has wrought), the plot has to make the consequences of allowing Zeke to save Sam as dire as they could possibly be, but even given that, could Dean in good conscience have made another choice? For as long as Sam can live another day, there is still hope--not just for Dean, but for Sam, as well.
So I guess the question we're really looking at here is, could Sam be mistaken about what's best for him? Does he know what's right for himself, or is he so damaged that he's incapable of making the right choice and needs someone else to look out for him and make some decisions for him, now that he's lost the capacity to see clearly?
Of course, whether Dean is the right person to make those decisions is uncertain, since most of Dean's choices are iffy at best, but that could also lead to interesting contemplations about whether Dean is acting primarily out of selfishness or whether he has Sam's best interests at heart.
I'll be most interested to hear your thoughts on the matter ...
I see that many people are, perhaps rightly, declaring that the events of S9 are entirely Dean's fault. Given that the Brothers Winchester have always had the unique knack of finding ways to blame themselves for things they have only tangential connections to, this is pleasant in a way, so that at least this time we're dealing with direct consequences of direct actions rather than mere Winchester guilt and bad self-esteem.
However ... what else was Dean to do? Up against the wall in 9.01, with time running out, he made the one and only choice available to him to save Sam's life. He prayed first to Cas, then to all angels, with the at-the-time reasonable-seeming assumption that at least a FEW of them would have positive intentions toward him and his brother. When Ezekiel was the only responder who seemed even remotely friendly, Dean questioned him closely to try to divine his motives, vetted him through Cas, and still harbored reservations until there was literally no other way to save Sam's life. Thereafter, Zeke had the upper hand and pulled Dean's strings harder by the week, until the disaster we all (plus Dean) knew was surely coming for him arrived and left Dean on the bunker floor whispering Kevin's name.
If he had known what would happen in the end, would Dean even have made a different choice? He probably would have warned Kevin. He would have told Cas. He would surely have tried to find a way to tell Sam (if that would even have helped, since Zeke could apparently simply erase the memories). But would he still have let Zeke into Sam?
I think he would have, since it was his one and only option for saving Sam's life. I think he would have engaged in as much damage control as possible, even trapped Zeke in holy fire, but Dean fights and fights to go on living, doing whatever it takes, and for Dean, that means Sam has to be alive, too, because Dean would far rather die than see Sam die.
So then the question becomes, was it wrong for him to do so? I know many believe it was, saying it was selfish and disrespectful of Dean to disregard Sam's wish to die, if not an outright violation of his consent and his sovereignty. This is a tricky question, to be sure, which I guess necessitates questioning why Sam wants to die, because when I see the fury some fans harbor toward Dean for making this choice, they seem to assume Sam longs for death out of some natural, straightforward desire--he feels like it's his time, he feels he's done enough.
But what if Sam's longing for death is a result of situational depression that might be relieved, the classic "permanent solution to a temporary problem"--or what if it's a result of such disastrous wreckage of his sense of self-worth (as evidenced in "Sacrifice") that he doesn't feel he deserves to live anymore, he believes he does more harm than good, he believes he holds his brother back, all of which amount to mental illness that might be healed? I mean, isn't his longing for death essentially equivalent to suicidal ideation?
Worst of all, in Dean's eyes, is the great likelihood (since the events of 9.01 transpired directly after "Sacrifice," in which Sam said point blank that he wants to die because of things Dean has caused him to believe about himself and their relationship) that Sam longs for death because Dean has treated him so badly and so disrespectfully, abusing his sense of self-worth into utter defeat; at which point would Dean not have a duty to rectify his own mistakes and missteps where his brother is concerned, rather than allow Sam to slip away as a result of them?? Allowing Sam to let go for those reasons under those circumstances would rob Dean of an opportunity to resolve them, relieve him of his responsibility for repairing what he has broken, and would condemn Sam to a death utterly devoid of redemption.
Of course, for the sake of ALL THE ANGST! (and perhaps to drive home to Dean unavoidably the destruction he has wrought), the plot has to make the consequences of allowing Zeke to save Sam as dire as they could possibly be, but even given that, could Dean in good conscience have made another choice? For as long as Sam can live another day, there is still hope--not just for Dean, but for Sam, as well.
So I guess the question we're really looking at here is, could Sam be mistaken about what's best for him? Does he know what's right for himself, or is he so damaged that he's incapable of making the right choice and needs someone else to look out for him and make some decisions for him, now that he's lost the capacity to see clearly?
Of course, whether Dean is the right person to make those decisions is uncertain, since most of Dean's choices are iffy at best, but that could also lead to interesting contemplations about whether Dean is acting primarily out of selfishness or whether he has Sam's best interests at heart.
I'll be most interested to hear your thoughts on the matter ...
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Date: 2013-12-13 04:42 am (UTC)One one hand, you raise a lot of good points about Sam's situational depression, permanent solution to a temporary problem, and wanting to die because of misunderstandings or things Dean could possibly fix. On the other hand, Dean has a history of making these kind of decisions "for Sam" when they are really for Dean.
In my own meta on this subject I compared Dean to the parent of a sick child, and I still think he's operating on that model. He feels Sam simply isn't capable of making that decision. And I'm not convinced he's wrong, in this case.
I guess my bottom line is, if I were in Dean's shoes, I would have done the same thing. But I know that doesn't make it right.
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Date: 2013-12-14 02:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-13 04:57 am (UTC)I think both Sam and Dean are fundamentally fucked up. That is kind of the first and most important point in my mind. They were raised in a world that is completely removed from normal, they have both been to Heaven, Hell and Purgatory and they have both lived and died many times over.
Sam's desire to die, I think, comes from multiple places - first, yes, there is that feeling that it is his time. I think Sam has always accepted the idea of death more than Dean has. People die, that is the way of the world. Also, yes, I think there is a suicidal bent to it - Sam wants to die having done something right, and not come back to do something wrong. Sam's words about Dean thinking Sam let him down are not just reflective of Sam thinking Dean thinks that, but Sam himself thinking it. Sam seems to hate himself for the things he has done. He has never let go of that guilt - in a lot of ways, meaning to or not, Dean has made him continue to carry that guilt. Also, Sam has lived a long life. Although we don't know for sure, chances are he remembers most if not all of his time in the Cage. Which was more than a century. So Sam's life feels much longer to him, and perhaps the idea of life, of the suffering that has come with it, has become something he wants to be free of.
I'm not sure I have enough room for all of this, so I'll get to the second point in another post...
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Date: 2013-12-14 02:39 am (UTC)Ah ... yes, yes, great point.
I also keep thinking of what you say about Sam's long life and how he would inevitably want to be free of it, given the kind of suffering he's endured. Oh, Sammy ... :-(
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Date: 2013-12-14 03:14 am (UTC)That said, for all his rhetoric, Sam isn't one to talk about these things, so it kind of makes sense.
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Date: 2013-12-27 11:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-13 05:02 am (UTC)But that's not true. Dean and Ezekiel are able to communicate with Sam while he's in a coma in 9.01. Dean could easily have gone into Sam's head and said: "Hey, there's this dude named Ezekiel who claims he can heal you if you consent to a temporary possession. Are you willing to give it a shot?"
Instead of being honest with Sam about the choice he faced, Dean made the decision to deliberately deceive and betray his brother. Dean did have another choice, he just didn't respect Sam enough to allow him to exercise the basic autonomy over his own body that's the right of every adult.
I also disagree that Sam was suicidal in 9.01. If he were, he would have rejected Dean/Ezekiel's offer. Indeed, Dean's deception was based on his assumption that Sam did want to live. Sam just didn't want to live in a manner that was contrary to the natural order because he's learned through hard experience that doing so brings suffering to himself and others: his resurrection in S2 came at the price of Dean's damnation, his resurrection in S6 came at the price of soullessness, and his resurrection in S9 came at the price of Kevin's murder and Sam's imprisonment in his own body. Sam's belief that he would have been better off dead (and in Heaven!) is perfectly reasonable in regard to each of those instances.
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Date: 2013-12-13 05:47 am (UTC)I think that at the end of the day, Dean's going to do whatever HE thinks it takes to keep Sam alive. And I do think that Dean, who has placed himself in the role of Sam's caretaker for so many years, believes, on some level, that he know what's best for Sam even more than Sam does.
Dean did take away Sam's choice. But I think Dean believes he did what he had to do. Ultimately, in order for Sam and Dean to lose the codependence and treat each other as equals, Dean's going to have to learn to trust Sam's judgment. In this moment, Dean didn't. But I also think Dean believes he only did what he had to do.
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Date: 2013-12-14 03:17 am (UTC)As for trusting Sam's judgment, though (and here I go, opening up another can of worms ;-}), the one time Dean did that (regarding taking Lucifer into the cage), it was utterly disastrous, primarily for Sam, but for everyone involved, and imo was the most horrifying decision Sam could ever have made for himself and his IMMORTAL SOUL--yeesh!
I guess, like you say, Dean's seen himself as Sam's caretaker for so long, he can't let go of that role, because GOD how I'd love to see them start treating each other as equals, and I suppose Dean would have to start by paying attention when Sam is trying to make a good choice for himself (and hey, maybe let him start with something smaller than LIFE-OR-DEATH DECISIONS) and respect it. ... But then that choice would probably be to leave hunting, maybe find someone and settle down, and Dean couldn't bear to let THAT happen, either. *Sigh* Those Winchester boys ... :-)
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Date: 2013-12-14 04:24 am (UTC)See, maybe this comes down to different priorities, because I wouldn't call what happened in "Swan Song" disastrous. Sam's plan was to lock Lucifer in the Cage, and he succeeded. The Apocalypse was averted at the last possible moment and the world was saved. The show made it abundantly clear that the Apocalypse would have been, as Cas put it, literal Hell on Earth. Sam chose to go to Hell so that 7 billion people didn't have Hell come to them. And it worked. To my way of thinking that's not disastrous, it's heroic.
Even factoring in all the mischief done by RoboSam (which was the result of Cas's meddling, not Sam's original decision), I'm not sure what option existed at the end of S5 that would have resulted in less harm than the one Sam chose.
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Date: 2013-12-27 11:22 pm (UTC)I hear what you're saying, but the angels also defended their perspective by saying that billions of people that died would end up in Heaven and their souls would be at peace. Going by the Bible, those who remain here after the apocalypse begins deserve to be in Hell and/or experience hell on Earth in hopes they might repent and be saved, which is a better deal than the eternity of Hell ... which I suppose brings up a subject for another meta: whether (as they debated) they might just as well have let the world end.
Still, in my book, it was a disastrous decision because a) they had little reason to believe Sam would even be able to overpower him, and b) the Winchesters have had countless opportunities to sacrifice themselves for a good cause and, as Dean has said, there's always another option if they just try hard enough to find it. To me, Sam's decision was noble but misguided.
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Date: 2013-12-28 10:39 pm (UTC)Sam and Dean weren't impressed by that moral logic when Pamela presented it to them, though. It amounts to "kill them all and let God sort them out." Which is even less appealing in the SPN-verse where a) God isn't around to do the sorting and b) Heaven kind of sucks.
Going by the Bible, those who remain here after the apocalypse begins deserve to be in Hell and/or experience hell on Earth in hopes they might repent and be saved, which is a better deal than the eternity of Hell
That's one of many possible interpretations of The Book of Revelation, but it was never mentioned in canon. Besides, while SPN borrows heavily from Christian mythology, it uses those stories loosely and often subversively, just as it does with other religions/mythologies. The casual sacrilegiousness of SPN is one of my favorite things about it. If the rapture happened, would you really trust the results of the SPN-verse Cosmic Sorting Hat? It's canon that Ken Lay went to Heaven and Bobby went to Hell. Most likely Michael, Zachariah, and their cronies would decide who was worthy to get on the life boats. Nobody (except Michael and Zachariah) wants that.
Still, in my book, it was a disastrous decision because a) they had little reason to believe Sam would even be able to overpower him, and b) the Winchesters have had countless opportunities to sacrifice themselves for a good cause and, as Dean has said, there's always another option if they just try hard enough to find it.
I actually totally agree with a). It was a mixture of desperation and hubris, and there was no good reason beforehand to think he'd pull it off. I just don't think the consequences were disastrous because, against all odds, the plan worked. And as much as Dean wants to believe there's always another option, it's not true. Sometimes there's just no hail Mary pass to be made.
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Date: 2013-12-14 05:05 am (UTC)So I think it's a little unfair to say that Sam screwed up the one decision he was allowed to make. That's not what happened; circumstances after that decision were outside his control. It's the same question, really. Given the choice, after S5, Dean would have brought Sam back to life, whether Sam wanted it or not. And that's the same exact issue we're faced with in S8.
Dean did say that he trusted Sam in S5. And ultimately, that resulted in saving the world and preventing the Apocalypse. I'd just like to see Dean show Sam the same level of trust again. To me, their relationship has included a lot of backpedaling over the past few years, and I keep waiting for them to get "back" to where they were.
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Date: 2013-12-27 11:32 pm (UTC)It's noble to sacrifice your life for a cause, but he took that infinitely farther by offering his soul up for neverending torment. His soulless body was a-okay because he didn't have to live with the consequences of that decision, but the Sam we know and love made a choice to offer himself over to literally the worst thing that could ever happen to anyone. (Not to mention, he's getting tortured by Lucy himself, the grand master of torture!)
YES, I wish they would get back to some--any--degree of mutual trust--and for it to be earned, but with this Zeke business, Dean's really fucked up bigtime.
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Date: 2013-12-13 02:31 pm (UTC)No, I think not. We were shown that Ezekiel could go inside Sam's head. The image of Dean in there was Ezekiel's projection -- though, we don't know whether Zeke was "channeling" Dean or just repeating what he'd gleaned from Dean. But there's no evidence that Dean could easily go inside Sam's head and communicate with him without Zeke's mediation.
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Date: 2013-12-14 12:47 am (UTC)I suppose Dean could have insisted Zeke tell Sam the truth, and then Zeke could have waltzed into Sam's head and lied to him anyway, but in that case the sin would've been solely Ezekiel's.
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Date: 2013-12-14 03:03 am (UTC)But of course this is part of my problem with the show--the writers often have the brothers lie to each other when the truth would do, just for the sake of heightening the tension, which I feel does a disservice to the truth of the characters. If Dean could really tell Sam everything and all his feelings about it, if they could share it all, he MIGHT have gotten Sam to agree to it, but I don't think Dean would even take the chance of letting Sam say no.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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Date: 2013-12-14 02:58 am (UTC)I'm sure Sam has many reasons not to want to go on living, including fear of going against the natural order, but given everything he does say, the way he longingly looks at Death, and the fact that Dean has to say in essence that Sam's dying will kill Dean as well, before he'll agree to what he thinks Dean wants, says to me that Sam doesn't want to live and only agrees to it for the same reason he's almost always done what his family wanted him to do when it wasn't what he himself wanted: a sense of familial duty and overwhelming guilt. Dean guilt-tripped him into going on living, imo. Given Sam's speech in the church in "Sacrifice," how can you believe Sam wants to live?
I agree with
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Date: 2013-12-13 05:02 am (UTC)I guess the question is, should people have the right to refuse treatment for an illness. In Sam's case, he has had the "treatment" before and it ended in unbearable pain and torture. If he were a cancer patient should he have the right to say I don't want chemo again. My opinion is yes, he should have that right. For Dean to make the decision to keep him alive under the desperate circumstances after the trial is fine, but after that, it should be Sam's choice entirely, IMHO.
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Date: 2013-12-17 03:28 am (UTC)That's an interesting comparison of its being a kind of treatment for an illness, which they've never said before that angel possession could be used for (and I still have my doubts he ever did any "healing" of Sam at all), because as you say, Sam's been down that road before, and Dean knows from the start that he'd refuse to go down it again. Oh, Dean.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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Date: 2013-12-13 05:08 am (UTC)Dean wasn't thinking straight. When it comes to his brother, he never does. Yes, he knew that Sam would not agree to be possessed by an angel, but in his mind, you could almost see one thing in a big neon sign: SAM IS GOING TO DIE. And that would've been the only thing that drove him. Dean does not have the capacity to think logically when someone he loves is in danger, especially Sam. His loyalty to Sam has always trumped anything, even common sense.
I don't think Dean would not said no to 'Zeke', even if he had known. He would have set a trap for the angel, perhaps tried to keep him in one place while he kept up his side of the deal. But he still would've let him take over Sam. Because Dean sees things in black and white - Sam dies, or Sam lives.
I think it was the same with Hell. Had he known he would've broken the first seal, I think Dean would've still sold his soul, because he did it for Sam.
What he did was both selfish and for his brother. He did it because he couldn't stand to be without his brother, but also out of love. I was angry at the beginning, but I think Dean is paying a high price for what he did. And that makes me feel a lot more sympathy for what he did.
This wasn't what Dean intended. He didn't see the long-term consequences, just as Sam didn't see the long-term consequences of the things he did to try and kill Lilith, and get revenge on her for Dean going to Hell. Just as Cas didn't see the long-term consequences of trying to defeat Raphael by making a deal with Crowley. Good intentions paving the road to Hell.
Your point about Dean believing Sam wanting to die is all his fault is a good one in particular, and not one I'd actually considered. Dean seeing Sam's discussion with Death - about wanting nobody to get hurt because of him - perhaps Dean started to realise that Sam really does think he does nothing but screw up. And Dean wanted to make sure he knows that's not true - in fact, the theme of this first half of the season has been Dean telling Sam and anyone else who asks that Sam has done a lot of good in the world, and is not to blame for the things that have gone wrong.
To me, one of the most interesting moments in Sacrifice is where Sam is talking about confession. And Dean starts to rattle off this stuff that he has done - Ruby, demon blood, etc - and Sam is clearly uncomfortable. Dean clearly notices this, and, as is his way, tries to deflect it with his anecdote about Penny Markle. Dean realised he'd upset Sam, but he also doesn't have very good control over what comes out of his mouth. He says things without thinking, and Sam takes things to heart, even when Dean is jabbing at him less than seriously, or because he doesn't think about the impact of what he says.
The end of Sacrifice made Dean truly realise the impact of the things he's said.
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Date: 2013-12-17 03:36 am (UTC)This right here is the whole issue in a nutshell. :-\ There's this thing in Dean (like the deal he made to bring Sam back to life) where he's either completely unwilling or completely incapable of considering the consequences of his rashest, most desperate actions. It's true that Sam (because it can't be seen from his current vantage) and even Cas (because of his innocence) can't possibly know the eventual results of some of their actions, but Dean knew from the first that this would end up REEEEAAALLY bad, and he did it anyway, and he ALWAYS WOULD. Which makes him a very real, fascinating character (and also someone I'm glad I DON'T know in real life ;-}).
the theme of this first half of the season has been Dean telling Sam and anyone else who asks that Sam has done a lot of good in the world, and is not to blame for the things that have gone wrong.
I'd love to hear more about this, because I didn't see it that way and I'd like for that to become the show I'm watching. Examples?
The end of Sacrifice made Dean truly realise the impact of the things he's said.
I SURE HOPE YOU'RE RIGHT.
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Date: 2013-12-17 04:47 am (UTC)There's the moment with that young female hunter, who hates Sam because demons celebrating the Apocalypse killed her parents, and Dean gives her a lecture about how Sam made mistakes, because he's human. Then he says to Sam himself (or was it?) that he has done more good than bad in the world.
There's also the very first ep when Sam wakes up and Dean says he meant everything he said in the Church, that Sam is capable of anything. Except, that was kind of a lie because Dean knows Sam nearly died.
They're the two I can think of.
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Date: 2013-12-27 11:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-01-01 08:04 am (UTC)... and when he says bad things about Sam, Sam ends up hearing them. Like the chaperone thing.
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Date: 2013-12-13 05:18 am (UTC)And there are going to be consequences of that. The problem with Dean is that he doesn't know what it's like to be possessed. Sam does, and he hates it. And Dean knows that he hates it.
Dean thinks he's done the wrong thing for the right reasons. I think he's done the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. But I see why he did it. I can see how it led to this point.
And perhaps, if Dean thinks of Sam as suicidal, he genuinely does think that Sam is incapable of looking after himself. And maybe he's right - do you give someone who is suicidal the final say over their life or death? Or do you realise they are not thinking straight and make that judgment yourself?
Of course, he has always considered Sam as a kid, still continues to believe it's his job to look after Sam. Most of Sam's rebellion stems from Dean's inability to let him grow up. So even if Sam simply thinks it's his time, Dean has acted childishly with this desire for Sam to never die.
In the end, I don't know. Both of them have done a lot of bad things, to themselves, to each other. But Dean, I think, is losing it. His relationship with Kevin in the last season or so reflects, to me, how far from normal Dean has strayed. I think he has lost his moral compass, and his perceptions of the world, somewhere along the line. Sam spent a year living a real life - Dean spent a year in Purgatory. Sam thinks dying is the natural order of things, and does not want people to be hurt because of him violating that - Dean thinks dying is something that can be cured, and should be cured, by any means necessary.
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Date: 2013-12-17 03:44 am (UTC)Most of Sam's rebellion stems from Dean's inability to let him grow up.
I'd say, his initial rebellion, his more recent despair, and finally, his suicidal desires, because it is true that what can't grow instead withers.
I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph, and that's a GREAT point that Dean thinks of death as something that can be cured--not that Sam doesn't also know it can, just that he realizes it usually SHOULDN'T. (I LOVE that when Roy and Walt are about to blow away Dean, his only remark on his imminent death is, not IF, but "WHEN I come back, Imma be pissed.")
You are SO right that Dean is losing it. Show has gone to great lengths to drive him to this point. I just wonder if they have some endgame in mind, because they haven't let Dean grow as a character all this time; I have serious doubts they will now, but where would be the satisfaction in driving Dean to this terrible low if not to make him change and grow?
Great comments.
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Date: 2013-12-13 08:33 am (UTC)Sam has not been right, not been himself since the cage.
Initially, having no soul, then all the issues of the wall, then dealing with fake!Lucifer, then the fallout from Dean returning from Purgatory.
To me the most telling aspect is his whole attitude during S8. It felt very much that his giving up on looking for Dean, not looking out for Kevin and getting into a relationship with someone who was as close to as damaged as he is as well as being as far from the hunter lifestyle as he previously wanted, all smacks of depression to me.
Then when Dean comes back, he seemed less than relieved. He put me in mind of Dean in Croatoan,
"I'm tired, Sam. I'm tired of this job, this life . . . this weight on my shoulders, man. I'm tired of it."
It just seemed like he'd had enough of it all. So I don't necessarily think that he wants to die, per se, more that he just wants it all to stop.
He's asked Dean on more than one occasion 'haven't we done enough?' and if the answer is always 'no', with no end in sight, I'd be hankering for a long rest too.
Dean's motivation - Firstly, toratio is right "I think both Sam and Dean are fundamentally fucked up." This is paramount as they will never make rational, sensible decisions (that would be such a boring show so thank god)
Second, I do think that Dean cannot get past his role of caregiver to Sam. He has always and will always make decisions for him as he just can't help it!
But mostly, if Dean has a mantra it's 'We can fix this' and I think that's what carried him through to making the (god awful) decision to trick Sam into letting Zeke in. That no matter how bad it turned out, he could fix it.
I think he's gotten so used to cleaning up after Sam or Cas or John that he felt that he could manage whatever happened. Except this time, the mess is his and goddamit, when he messes up, he really messes up.
(That was my favourite bit of 9:09, his realisation that he can't fix this, for once it's too much for him)
I think too that part of the reason he can't let go of Sam yet is because their relationship is so bad, that Sam is so unhappy, he feels that he needs to fix that too before he can let him go.
His primary directive has always been 'look out for Sammy' so until he feels Sam is 100% okay, I can't see him letting go.
I think perhaps when Sam confessed to Dean that he thought his greatest sin was letting him down, that Dean realised that he felt that way too because he had made Sam feel that way and that he couldn't let Sam die without making it right.
They have this intense bond but without trust, and I think Dean feels that if Sam is the only person he should trust and yet he can't, that he has to make it right. (I know that doesn't make sense completely)
And in a sense I feel this lack of trust between them primarily goes back to Dean selling his soul for Sam. Sam knew how bad Dean felt that John had done it for him and yet Dean didn't hesitate to let Sam feel that way and I think if anything, that's what Sam is tired of, Dean not caring about Sam's feelings because he thinks he can make it up to him later.
There's a great quote...
"Dean loves Sam like he wants to make the sun rise just for him and Sam loves Dean like he wants to break the sun so Dean doesn't have to anymore"
...no idea who by, but I think it sums up how they're both always trying to do the right thing by each other but ultimately do nothing but piss the other off.
Stuff - Sam would never have let Zeke in as the last time he said yes to an angel, he felt that he let Dean down and suffered in the cage because of it.
Dean is now where Cas was post-leviathan and I think it will take a similarly grand gesture to sort out this mess (Oooo, Gadriel!Dean! Yes, please!)
As a Deangirl and fan of the storyline, I feel that Dean has tremendously fucked up, it's all his fault and that it's awesome! I think it's going to be great to see him struggle with this and that he'll learn a lot. If anything I really hope that the writers are going to use it to bring the brothers closer together (...yes, that close ; )
Also, I think the term 'bi-bro' should be on a t-shirt. Love it! : )
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Date: 2013-12-20 04:58 am (UTC)I'd be hankering for a long rest too.
I really love the way you put this, and so apt for poor Sam.
That is a fantastic point about how the lack of trust between them goes back to Dean selling his soul. Dean would probably refuse to believe that could be behind their lack of trust because he made this huge sacrifice ostensibly for Sam's sake, but it wasn't a sacrifice Sam WANTED, any more than Dean would have wanted John to do that for him. Dean should have learned his lesson that what's dead should stay dead, but he'll break ANY rule to keep Sam alive--including any of Sam's rules (like, for instance, NOT ALLOWING AN ANGEL IN HIM) ... which goes back to the fact that Dean's doing this for selfish reasons.
Dean not caring about Sam's feelings because he thinks he can make it up to him later.
Yeah, it's all part of that dreadful abuse cycle they've got going on. :-(
Lord, how I hope the writers use it to make Dean learn a lot, but I fear he'll have learned nothing, since in everything he's been through, they've let him grow and change almost not at all. :-( (I like the storyline, too, but I'd like it better if I could believe they were going anywhere with it with Dean's character ....)
hee, I first heard the term bi-bro from fannishliss, and I love it!
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Date: 2013-12-13 02:52 pm (UTC)Supernatural to me is the epic saga about rocks and hard places, terrible choices and pyrrhic victories.
Dean is a man of action. He sees Sam dying, he takes action. He's not gonna EVER let Sam die, that's simply not an option for Dean. The only time he ever let Sam die was after Lucifer beat him to a pulp and Sam fell back into the hole. If Dean could've dragged himself over to that hole, he would've gone straight down with him. y/n?
There are obviously a lot of extremely difficult ethical decisions on the table with this issue. Is it wrong to save the life of someone who is suicidal? Of course not. If I saw my sister about to jump off a bridge, I would wrestle her to the ground, against her will, obviously!! But then other folks are like, well, what if it's more like Sam is a dying man who just wants to let nature take its course. I think there is evidence for both sides. Dean of course, wouldn't care. He would be like YOU'RE TAKING THE DAMN CHEMO, SAM, because he is fucked up like that.
To me, I look at Sam's mental state, and I lean to the side that he is letting go with more of a suicidal ideation. Because his primary concern is that his existence should come to an end so that no one else will suffer. Very noble, but not very accurate. Dean can't be whole without Sam, as messed up as that is.
I think it's interesting too to think back at how out of character Bobby sounded in Sam's head. The side of Sam that was trying to argue that he'd done enough, weren't all that convincing. I mean, absolutely, Sam is an amazing Hero and has done plenty -- but he's also BEEN looking for a way out his whole life, so Death seems like that option at that time. Arguments for Sam's autonomy are valid. Sam deserves to determine his own destiny. But at the same time, the universe keeps putting him in a place where his own destiny gets subsumed in bigger fights.
I think there's something in Sam that wanted to let go after he'd done his best. He was so close with the Trials. I actually blame Dean more for pulling Sam out of the final Trial -- which Sam went into with a clear head, and which they both agreed was their ultimate goal -- than for pulling the trick with Zeke.
I also see this word of Betrayal vs. Deception. Yes, Dean deceived Sam, but Betrayal? Somehow I just can't go there. Dean deceived Sam, but not to betray him.
With Kevin dead, that's one of the worst possible outcomes. I do blame Dean for that, because he just didn't trust Kevin enough. Very sad.
But Sam is still walking, and Dean will never give up. He would never consciously betray Sam. To Dean, letting Sam die vs doing anything possible to save him? Letting Sam die is a betrayal of everything Dean is and always has been. Sam must know that, deep down -- yet the tragedy is, maybe he doesn't, or he'd never have convinced himself it would be okay for Dean if he just let go. ):
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Date: 2013-12-20 05:46 am (UTC)I actually blame Dean more for pulling Sam out of the final Trial -- which Sam went into with a clear head, and which they both agreed was their ultimate goal -- than for pulling the trick with Zeke.
YES. Of course Dean can't let Sam die, because then we would have no more show, but it would have been as noble and honorable and meaningful a death as Sam (to whom such things, I'd venture to say, are extremely important) could ever hope for. I LOVE the scene in the church in "Sacrifice" where Dean convinces him to live, but honestly, in light of what Sam says in 9.01, I now read Sam's reluctant assent as a sorrowful defeat, from Sam's point of view. He allowed Dean to convince him to live for DEAN'S sake, not for his own. Given that he's perfectly willing to accept a meaningless and redemptionless death in 9.01 says that he just wanted to be able, finally, to let go, and Dean robbed him of the opportunity to make it mean something.
I agree 100% with your differentiation between betrayal and deception.
I agree too with what you say about his not trusting Kevin enough. Interestingly, he controlled and belittled Kevin in a way not so different from the way he does with Sam (come to think of it, rather as if Kevin is just "his littler brother") and didn't trust him to make his own judgment calls, and as always seems to happen when Dean refuses to respect the people around enough to let them make their own choice, disaster strikes. But this goes back to my feeling that if Dean had trusted Sam enough to make smaller decisions for himself, then Sam would probably never have felt driven to make such major, catastrophic decisions for himself.
Sam must know that, deep down -- yet the tragedy is, maybe he doesn't, or he'd never have convinced himself it would be okay for Dean if he just let go. ):
I feel this is the crux of the whole issue. Whose needs are greater? I guess this is a whole other meta (maybe it will be! :-D), but I say Sam's. Sam's desires not to hunt, to have a relationship with a woman, to go to college, are normal, healthy desires (after all, even Dean pointed out in "Yellow Fever" that only crazy people would hunt like they do :-]), whereas Dean's refusal to let Sam do any of those things or leave his side stems from insecurity and anxiety he could resolve, if he tried hard enough. (And I've no doubt Sam would love to help him do so any way he could.) ... Yet, with Sam having been driven to the mental state he's in, Dean seems to be in a position where it really IS best for him to make some choices for Sam now. If only he starts making the right ones!! Not Dean's forte, alas, which is why I so wish he would deal with some of his damn issues ... but then I guess we wouldn't have a show. ;-]
Thanks for a great comment.
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Date: 2013-12-20 05:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-16 04:43 am (UTC)I've read through everyone's comments, and there's something to note that I didn't see; does anyone remember when both Sam and Dean went to Heaven and Ash called them soulmates? Yeah. Sam and Dean are soulmates. That means a lot, and one of the definitions I have always thought of means that they are the SAME soul in TWO bodies. In a sense, they literally cannot live without each other.
Going back as far as season 1, there didn't appear to be any clear indication that Sam was completely thrilled with his new life, and Dean had already mastered the art of the devil-may-care attitude by then, so knowing his thoughts was impossible. Yes, at that time, Sam was going to propose to Jess, but was he happy, or was he just trying to do what he could? He didn't seem to come back to full snarky life until Dean came to get him.
Fast forwarding through all the times where Sam or Dean dies, what happens to the other once one isn't on the earth? They lose their shit. When Sam dies, Dean sells his soul to get Sam back; when Dean dies to fulfill his bargain, Sam drinks demon blood to avenge his death. They both die at the same time; they both try and find the other and are two of the few people who are able to find and enter others' Heavens. Point of fact is, even when they make each other miserable, they need each other. When they're apart, they talk about the other. In essence, their co-dependence on each other is more the star of the show than the monsters they hunt.
I don't agree with Dean's decision about letting an angel possess Sam, but I also have to believe that Dean was not only NOT thinking clearly, but was in the process of losing his shit about the thought of Sam dying without him being able to prevent it. What no one seems to mention is the possibility of Dean taking Sam back to the bunker and letting him recover on his own, which could well have been something that could have been accomplished with time and care. However, Dean wasn't thinking of what he could do to have Sam eventually get better; he was thinking of how he could get Sam to be better immediately, if not sooner.
There is another consideration here, and that's the fact that, even after all this time, Dean still doesn't seem to have grasped that a lot of his decisions specifically concerning Sam have consequences. It always seems as though Dean, as long as Sam is around in some capacity, happy or not, doesn't seem to care about how Sam got there. It isn't to say that Dean wants Sam to be miserable, but all Dean himself needs in life is Sam nearby, and he can't think beyond that, even during the times where he's angry enough to leave Sam.
In conclusion...do I think Dean should have honored Sam's wishes? Well, honestly, yes, but I can understand the thought processes behind Dean's decisions. It doesn't make them right, but I can understand.
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Date: 2013-12-16 04:28 pm (UTC)This wasn't an option. Sam was dying. He couldn't be saved at a hospital, so recovering under Dean's care in the bunker wasn't possible.
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Date: 2013-12-17 05:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-27 11:43 pm (UTC)caranfindel is correct--Sam was nigh-on dead after the trials. Dean took him to the hospital and they couldn't do anything, so he sent out a call to all angels and Ezekiel came. He said the only hope was to possess him and heal him from the inside, tricksy bastard. ;-)
I really like your theory that they literally can't live without each other because they're soulmates!
In essence, their co-dependence on each other is more the star of the show than the monsters they hunt.
Well put.
It always seems as though Dean, as long as Sam is around in some capacity, happy or not, doesn't seem to care about how Sam got there.
Too true.
Let me know if you start watching again ...
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Date: 2013-12-17 11:34 am (UTC)Sloppy pedestrian writing aimed at making Dean the bad guy.
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Date: 2013-12-20 05:54 am (UTC)That would have been cool. The scripts seem to be tracing the same old territory the show's been over many times. I kind of feel like the writers are treading water, afraid to try something new and different, alas.
The writers clearly are aiming to make Dean feel as bad as humanly possible, and I'm not sure why. Sadly, I fear there won't even turn out to be a reason and it'll just keep on being more of the same ....
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Date: 2014-01-07 02:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-01-09 06:42 am (UTC)Thanks for weighing in.