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brightly_litA couple nights ago, I rewatched 8.03 (to see Jensen’s dad!). Though it aired third, it was filmed first (so Jensen, who directed, would have time to prepare)--it is fun to see J2’s hiatus tans, so unlike their usual Vancouver pallor. ;-)
S8 doesn’t get talked about much anymore. The consensus (which I agree with) seems to be that as a season it was a mess, with very many subpar episodes, at least compared to the level of quality SPN sustained during the previous 7 seasons. Indeed, 8.03, on second viewing, is virtually nothing but exposition. While infinitely superior to Buckner/Ross-Leming’s most infamous episode, “Man’s Best Friend With Benefits” (although an argument could be made their racist truck episode takes the top spot), it’s also lame and boring, especially on second viewing, when you already have some idea what’s going to happen. However, I want to give credit to Bucker/Ross-Leming for always having had a knack for writing the relationship between Sam and Dean quite well, and again, that was the high point of this ep.
Given that it was the first episode of the season that was shot, they’re delving into the issues between Sam and Dean that S8 intended to explore for the first time, and in retrospect, they seemed crystal clear--and, in light of everything that’s happened on the show since, quite interesting and potentially illuminating, especially in terms of Sam and Dean’s current issues. The setup is simple: fresh outta Purgatory, Dean’s love for the job is renewed; he’s invigorated, since the ‘purity’ of always knowing what to do there (i.e., kill everything in sight) was something he liked. Sam liked what he did during that year, too: living a normal life. Their two desires could not be less compatible. More than once, Dean gustily declares his pleasure at being back where he’s happiest: in his baby, his brother at his side, hunting monsters. Sam, always more circumspect by nature than Dean, doesn’t say as plainly what he’s feeling, but it’s written all over his face: this is not where he wants to be. This thing that Dean wants is palpably, in every aspect, NOT what Sam wants.
Now, before I get into this, I feel I must address the Amelia-hate/Sam-hate/love-interest-hate that’s been the subject of much discussion, not only by fans, but also by producers and actors on the show. Some people believe the fans hate women; some believe they’re so jealous of ‘their boys’ that they can’t bear for another woman to touch them, or even be straight around them (hence, Charlie, who Singer said straight out is ‘acceptable’ to female fans because she’s gay). It sure does look that way, and sometimes I’ve--however reluctantly--felt like I had to subscribe to these beliefs myself. I’ve gone through many different opinions, none of which felt quite true, until I finally feel I’ve hit on it: It’s not that we hate women, and okay, maybe we’re a little jealous, but we could handle it. (After all, fandom was fine with it when Cas finally got laid; we just slapped him on the shoulder, congratulated him, and expressed our wish that ideally next time he’d get to do it with someone who DIDN’T subsequently try to kill him.)
Rather, it’s that the premise of SPN is founded on the relationship between these two brothers. The very first episode of the series killed off Sam’s love interest, for the purpose of catapulting him on the journey that has become the story of the show. A romantic relationship is the only relationship powerful enough to come between Sam and Dean, which means it’s a thing highly likely to destroy the foundation upon which our beloved series is built. So, it’s not so much that we’re that jealous of our boys; it’s that we’re that protective of our Show! It IS a long time to deprive Sam and Dean of love, a wide circle of family/friends, a home, &c. ... but at least (in the fanfic) they have each other.
... Which leads us to the Sam hate, which baffles me and many others. What on Earth has Sam done to deserve such loathing? Dude, the guy was willing to die to save the world--twice! And in S8, he saved Dean’s life in the process. Sam has suffered terribly, never gotten what he wanted (except those few golden years at Stanford, for which he’s now paid a millionfold), but dutifully done what he had to to take care of his brother and save the world, asking for nothing in return ... or at least, not receiving it: little things like a life he would actually want to live, for his most important feelings to be honored, and not to be catastrophically deceived leading to the deaths of more people he loves. But I digress. Looking at Sam staring mournfully out the car window, remembering Amelia and his birthday picnic, I couldn’t help but wonder, can all this Sam-hate be traced back to Amelia and the first whispers of S8?
The vast majority of fans hated the Amelia storyline. HATED IT, which I also didn’t really get, because I liked it fine. In light of all this, however, it begins to make sense. On most shows, introducing a love interest is (in theory, at least) a good idea to stir things up, spin characters off in new directions, inject some fresh ideas; on SPN, however, it serves no more purpose than to needlessly threaten Show at its most fundamental core. You know that either Sam’s going to eventually ditch Amelia (or she’s going to die), or what this show is all about will dissolve. Is Sam going to go off and live a normal life while Dean keeps hunting? Could happen, but it wouldn’t be SPN as we know it. Thus, Sam’s great crime was wanting something contrary to what the continuation of Show depends on. This is to say that in essence, Sam threatened to kill SPN--the greatest crime of all.
Of course, it wasn’t really Sam who made this decision; it was the writers, who made a serious miscalculation in trying to get a storyline going that would appear to lead directly to the show’s demise. (!) Yet, at the same time, I feel they should be allowed to follow Sam and Dean's story wherever it may genuinely lead, and if that's into the painful reality of their wanting different things, I want to see it, as long as they resolve it in such a way that Show can go on. Sadly, they still don’t seem to understand what their miscalculation was, which sucks, because now they seem to have a phobia of putting any female characters on the show who a) don’t die in that same episode, b) aren’t evil, or c) aren’t gay. Guys, guys--put all the female characters on the show you want! Just stop trying to get them in bed with Sam and Dean! Women are more than love objects, you know. You could concoct a million different interesting (and supernatural) reasons why the woman could never come between Sam and Dean, upon which you could have all the women on the show you want. The ‘love interest’ cliché is tired, anyway, especially on a show that bucks all the stereotypes like SPN.
I would still like to know what they were actually planning to do with that early S8 Amelia storyline, which they abruptly aborted, presumably because it was so unpopular. All I know is that they originally intended to keep it going through season 8 and perhaps beyond. The question of how Sam and Dean want and have always wanted different things is a most interesting one. It’s been coming up since the first season; it seems like it’s an issue that needs to be addressed at some point. I can’t help but wonder if the writers’ plans were wrecked when that storyline failed, and that’s what led to the mess that was the second half of S8, until the finale, which was great, but which even now, very near the end of S9, fails to find a place within the whole story of Sam and Dean, fails to connect with any ongoing arc that furthers their story meaningfully.
Maybe the writers felt their only path forward with these characters was to finally explore what they each want at their cores, and when their one idea for doing so didn’t work out, they got scared to try anything daring, hence the rather repetitive demon storylines that don’t seem to be going anywhere. But what is SPN except daring, at least in its first few seasons? That’s what made it so great; it told the story it wanted to tell, critics and network execs be damned, and it was a thing of beauty. Would that it could be like that again. I’d be most interested to hear in the comments what ideas y’all might have for ways they could carry Sam and Dean’s story forward meaningfully without killing what the show is all about, because it is a tough job, but it must be possible. Heck, I’d be happy to follow them down the path of Sam trying for a normal life ... as long as it led somewhere meaningful that didn’t destroy the show. I mean, that story could be told, as long as it was handled carefully. How ARE they going to resolve how much Sam and Dean desire different things?
I guess the problem is that Sam doesn’t want to kill monsters, and killin’ monsters is what the show is all about. There are plenty of us who would be perfectly happy to see Sam and Dean settle down and start living more of a curtain!fic life, but plenty more who wouldn’t like that at all ... especially the casual viewer on whom ratings so depend. If you mess with the original premise that worked so well, you risk ruining the show entirely. So the writers do face a very difficult task, but then again, we fic writers manage to find a million stories in the cracks, and invent ideas beyond anything that ever appeared in the universe of SPN, so surely Show’s writers could, too.
S8 doesn’t get talked about much anymore. The consensus (which I agree with) seems to be that as a season it was a mess, with very many subpar episodes, at least compared to the level of quality SPN sustained during the previous 7 seasons. Indeed, 8.03, on second viewing, is virtually nothing but exposition. While infinitely superior to Buckner/Ross-Leming’s most infamous episode, “Man’s Best Friend With Benefits” (although an argument could be made their racist truck episode takes the top spot), it’s also lame and boring, especially on second viewing, when you already have some idea what’s going to happen. However, I want to give credit to Bucker/Ross-Leming for always having had a knack for writing the relationship between Sam and Dean quite well, and again, that was the high point of this ep.
Given that it was the first episode of the season that was shot, they’re delving into the issues between Sam and Dean that S8 intended to explore for the first time, and in retrospect, they seemed crystal clear--and, in light of everything that’s happened on the show since, quite interesting and potentially illuminating, especially in terms of Sam and Dean’s current issues. The setup is simple: fresh outta Purgatory, Dean’s love for the job is renewed; he’s invigorated, since the ‘purity’ of always knowing what to do there (i.e., kill everything in sight) was something he liked. Sam liked what he did during that year, too: living a normal life. Their two desires could not be less compatible. More than once, Dean gustily declares his pleasure at being back where he’s happiest: in his baby, his brother at his side, hunting monsters. Sam, always more circumspect by nature than Dean, doesn’t say as plainly what he’s feeling, but it’s written all over his face: this is not where he wants to be. This thing that Dean wants is palpably, in every aspect, NOT what Sam wants.
Now, before I get into this, I feel I must address the Amelia-hate/Sam-hate/love-interest-hate that’s been the subject of much discussion, not only by fans, but also by producers and actors on the show. Some people believe the fans hate women; some believe they’re so jealous of ‘their boys’ that they can’t bear for another woman to touch them, or even be straight around them (hence, Charlie, who Singer said straight out is ‘acceptable’ to female fans because she’s gay). It sure does look that way, and sometimes I’ve--however reluctantly--felt like I had to subscribe to these beliefs myself. I’ve gone through many different opinions, none of which felt quite true, until I finally feel I’ve hit on it: It’s not that we hate women, and okay, maybe we’re a little jealous, but we could handle it. (After all, fandom was fine with it when Cas finally got laid; we just slapped him on the shoulder, congratulated him, and expressed our wish that ideally next time he’d get to do it with someone who DIDN’T subsequently try to kill him.)
Rather, it’s that the premise of SPN is founded on the relationship between these two brothers. The very first episode of the series killed off Sam’s love interest, for the purpose of catapulting him on the journey that has become the story of the show. A romantic relationship is the only relationship powerful enough to come between Sam and Dean, which means it’s a thing highly likely to destroy the foundation upon which our beloved series is built. So, it’s not so much that we’re that jealous of our boys; it’s that we’re that protective of our Show! It IS a long time to deprive Sam and Dean of love, a wide circle of family/friends, a home, &c. ... but at least (in the fanfic) they have each other.
... Which leads us to the Sam hate, which baffles me and many others. What on Earth has Sam done to deserve such loathing? Dude, the guy was willing to die to save the world--twice! And in S8, he saved Dean’s life in the process. Sam has suffered terribly, never gotten what he wanted (except those few golden years at Stanford, for which he’s now paid a millionfold), but dutifully done what he had to to take care of his brother and save the world, asking for nothing in return ... or at least, not receiving it: little things like a life he would actually want to live, for his most important feelings to be honored, and not to be catastrophically deceived leading to the deaths of more people he loves. But I digress. Looking at Sam staring mournfully out the car window, remembering Amelia and his birthday picnic, I couldn’t help but wonder, can all this Sam-hate be traced back to Amelia and the first whispers of S8?
The vast majority of fans hated the Amelia storyline. HATED IT, which I also didn’t really get, because I liked it fine. In light of all this, however, it begins to make sense. On most shows, introducing a love interest is (in theory, at least) a good idea to stir things up, spin characters off in new directions, inject some fresh ideas; on SPN, however, it serves no more purpose than to needlessly threaten Show at its most fundamental core. You know that either Sam’s going to eventually ditch Amelia (or she’s going to die), or what this show is all about will dissolve. Is Sam going to go off and live a normal life while Dean keeps hunting? Could happen, but it wouldn’t be SPN as we know it. Thus, Sam’s great crime was wanting something contrary to what the continuation of Show depends on. This is to say that in essence, Sam threatened to kill SPN--the greatest crime of all.
Of course, it wasn’t really Sam who made this decision; it was the writers, who made a serious miscalculation in trying to get a storyline going that would appear to lead directly to the show’s demise. (!) Yet, at the same time, I feel they should be allowed to follow Sam and Dean's story wherever it may genuinely lead, and if that's into the painful reality of their wanting different things, I want to see it, as long as they resolve it in such a way that Show can go on. Sadly, they still don’t seem to understand what their miscalculation was, which sucks, because now they seem to have a phobia of putting any female characters on the show who a) don’t die in that same episode, b) aren’t evil, or c) aren’t gay. Guys, guys--put all the female characters on the show you want! Just stop trying to get them in bed with Sam and Dean! Women are more than love objects, you know. You could concoct a million different interesting (and supernatural) reasons why the woman could never come between Sam and Dean, upon which you could have all the women on the show you want. The ‘love interest’ cliché is tired, anyway, especially on a show that bucks all the stereotypes like SPN.
I would still like to know what they were actually planning to do with that early S8 Amelia storyline, which they abruptly aborted, presumably because it was so unpopular. All I know is that they originally intended to keep it going through season 8 and perhaps beyond. The question of how Sam and Dean want and have always wanted different things is a most interesting one. It’s been coming up since the first season; it seems like it’s an issue that needs to be addressed at some point. I can’t help but wonder if the writers’ plans were wrecked when that storyline failed, and that’s what led to the mess that was the second half of S8, until the finale, which was great, but which even now, very near the end of S9, fails to find a place within the whole story of Sam and Dean, fails to connect with any ongoing arc that furthers their story meaningfully.
Maybe the writers felt their only path forward with these characters was to finally explore what they each want at their cores, and when their one idea for doing so didn’t work out, they got scared to try anything daring, hence the rather repetitive demon storylines that don’t seem to be going anywhere. But what is SPN except daring, at least in its first few seasons? That’s what made it so great; it told the story it wanted to tell, critics and network execs be damned, and it was a thing of beauty. Would that it could be like that again. I’d be most interested to hear in the comments what ideas y’all might have for ways they could carry Sam and Dean’s story forward meaningfully without killing what the show is all about, because it is a tough job, but it must be possible. Heck, I’d be happy to follow them down the path of Sam trying for a normal life ... as long as it led somewhere meaningful that didn’t destroy the show. I mean, that story could be told, as long as it was handled carefully. How ARE they going to resolve how much Sam and Dean desire different things?
I guess the problem is that Sam doesn’t want to kill monsters, and killin’ monsters is what the show is all about. There are plenty of us who would be perfectly happy to see Sam and Dean settle down and start living more of a curtain!fic life, but plenty more who wouldn’t like that at all ... especially the casual viewer on whom ratings so depend. If you mess with the original premise that worked so well, you risk ruining the show entirely. So the writers do face a very difficult task, but then again, we fic writers manage to find a million stories in the cracks, and invent ideas beyond anything that ever appeared in the universe of SPN, so surely Show’s writers could, too.
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no subject
Date: 2014-04-07 11:35 pm (UTC)Where did you hear about that? I would love to know what really went on in the writers' room that year! Season 8 seemas like 2 different seasons to me, one about Sam not looking for Dean (Amelia) and one about being Men of Letters and closing the Gates of Hell, and no connection between them.
What I want is for the brothers to grow up enough to be able to honestly talk to each other and accept that they can want different things and still love each other! I don't like the brokenness between them. There were other ways this season could have gone--what if Dean had taken the angel into himself in order to get the power to heal Sam?
Why couldn't Dean have kept his life with Lisa and Ben, and Sam find a girl and live nearby and they still continue to hunt? I know, classic curtainfic, but I would happily watch that!
no subject
Date: 2014-04-08 06:03 am (UTC)What I want is for the brothers to grow up enough to be able to honestly talk to each other and accept that they can want different things and still love each other!
Gah, yes. Yes! It shouldn't be so hard, right??
And you know, I loved Lisa and Ben and I would also have loved to see that keep going. I think it would be cool if they could somehow transition the show into a compelling curtainfic. It might have to find a mostly different audience, but hardcore fans would probably love it!
no subject
Date: 2014-04-07 11:59 pm (UTC)I'm with you about Amelia. I liked the story - it was really interesting seeing Sam hook up in this kind of sad relationship based on mutual loss and loneliness. It's not a relationship I would have expected to last, built as it was on this kind of sad, lost foundation, but it was interesting. Man, did I hate Amelia's father for being such a dick to Sam! I thought they actually did a pretty decent job of dealing with Sam's decision not to go back to Amelia.
I think you hypothesis about the fury directed at poor Sam that season may be the right one, but if they'd only clarified a couple of points, maybe people would have been kinder to Sam. I mean, jeez, he's entitled to want a life of his own, and he's been through so freaking much... People do break, you know. They do. And it's no wonder he wandered off in grief and confusion after Dean disappeared.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-08 06:10 am (UTC)YES, and they keep doing that to Sam, what with the "I wouldn't" [have saved your life] speech in S9. Someone left a comment on another post of mine, saying she feels the drama is contrived this season, and I can't help but agree, when a few words would fix so much.
this kind of sad relationship based on mutual loss and loneliness.
Yeah, I liked that, too--liked that she's a character who's more realistic and less idealized--more unpleasant and bitter than women almost ever get to appear on t.v. It's a good point that the relationship probably couldn't have lasted, anyway. But what was with Sam just up and leaving her in the middle of the night for no particular reason? That never gelled for me.
I mean, jeez, he's entitled to want a life of his own, and he's been through so freaking much...
YES YES YES. Dean has had it the way he wanted it for so many seasons; I'd love to see Sam finally get his turn.
Thanks for the comment.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-08 10:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-04-08 12:10 pm (UTC)All they had to do, and it's not much, is have Sam say, "I tried to find you, but there wasn't any trace and I thought you were dead."
That's all, and it would have made Sam look a million times better.
But instead they did the opposite, they had Sam blackmail Dean, basically pretty much tell him that if he dared to show any of his pain over Sam not looking for him, that he'd leave.
Acting pretty much throughout the season that he didn't want anything to do with Dean, and then at the end of the season it was suddenly "oh I never thought I was good enough and I don't want you to have anyone else"
It's that what made me hate S8 Sam, not his desire to have a normal life, but the way he treated Dean all through the season.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-08 06:06 pm (UTC)... Which is giving me ideas like that Sam--ooh, it would be so cool if this was it!--said yes to Lucifer while Dean was in Purgatory, believing he could again overpower him and that it would give him the ability to save Dean, but Lucifer has control and is deliberately driving Dean over the edge with the Mark of Cain. It's about the only thing that would explain Sam's baffling behavior. If only it were that! But alas, I think it was just weak writing.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-08 06:18 pm (UTC)I don't want to hate Sam. Dean loves Sam and I'd hate not to love someone that means to much to Dean. But it's hard to keep liking Sam when you have to keep coming up with excuses for Sam's asshole like behavior in the past two seasons.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-08 12:36 am (UTC)The Amelia plotline also fizzled for me because she was very much what I think of as a "blocking" character--a character introduced by the writers to serve as an obstacle, and so to artificially create conflict or delay audience gratification. So, for example, what we want is to watch Sam and Dean fight vampirates, but then Amelia steps in and suddenly we're watching Sam unclog a sink instead. That strategy inevitably makes a big chunk of the audience hate the "blocking" character, because every time we see their face they're there to deny us what we want. And since the vast majority of TV shows center on straight men, women are disproportionately shunted into the "blocking" role.
There are shows well-written enough to avoid the "blocking" character trap--Hannibal stands out as show centered on two men that doesn't use its women in "blocking" roles--but at the end of the day I think female characters will be disproportionately hate-able until there are more shows where a woman is the star.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-08 06:16 am (UTC)Yes. I was thinking after I posted this meta that when they're 22 and 26 and looking for their dad, this makes sense, whereas now, both in their 30s, the world already saved, it begins to make less sense that they remain in this lonely, dangerous life with barely any other human connections. They'd really be wanting to settle down by now ... but it doesn't work for the premise of the show. Maybe Sam could find his way around to really preferring a hunter's life, or there could be a compromise. They do have the bunker now, after all--a home of sorts.
That's a great point about her being a blocking character. I agree about women stars helping with the women-as-blocking-characters problem, but as you say, great writing can do it, too. Man, I'd love to see them use women better on SPN.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-08 02:03 am (UTC)I hated the Amelia storyline. Not because I hate seeing either boy hook up with someone (I loved Lisa, and Madison broke my heart), but because she was an annoying whiny bitch. I can't imagine her being attractive to anyone with that attitude, and the fact that she somehow landed Sam is beyond my understanding. Mutual loss, mutual loneliness, yes, but she just was not a character I found either sympathetic or interesting, particularly considering her rudeness toward Sam and her less-than-professional take on being a vet. Sam hooking up with her is basically like saying he was looking for someone to verbally abuse him at least half the time, and treat him like porcelain the other. Now, I could quite easily see them being friends, considering their shared life-pain, but that's where the writers of SPN screwed up for me, because unless the woman in question is gay, neither boy seems capable of friendship with a woman who is of reproductive age. I think their relationship would have been far healthier for both involved if they had just been friends, because as it was, between Dean getting out of Purgatory and her wayward husband suddenly being very much alive, the drama felt contrived.
Sam-hate? Well, honestly, yes. That is PURELY on the writers' heads, though, because they basically had Sam, who had no conclusive proof that either Dean or Cas were dead, go off on his "merry" way, meet a girl (who I'd like to stay in her little corner of obscurity), settle down and get a dog, all while ditching the other responsibilities he'd had, including keeping Kevin safe and even helping other hunters with research, if he wasn't active in the field. That abrupt about-face is startling and rings false, especially considering his previous devotion to the life seen in seasons 2-7. It flat-out makes no sense for him to suddenly want to go back to a semi-Stanford experience, and the writers serving that up alienated me when they tried to say that Sam went on his way to an apple-pie life while knowing baddies that could do a lot of harm were still out there. That's not even considering the season 7 difficulty in having the Leviathans suddenly become less dangerous simply because they lack a leader. Basically, they made Sam take a complete 180, personality-wise, and expected us to love it because of the previous seven seasons.
I have to agree with what some people said before; had the writers taken the time to at least say Sam tried to find Dean, or even had him somehow having some kind of meltdown at the loss, maybe the audience would have been more sympathetic toward him, but they didn't, so they weren't. Amelia, in my opinion, was a complete miss because she was a basically unlikeable character who nevertheless managed to get everything she wanted. The problem with the entirety of SPN so far is that neither of the boys on whom the show is based EVER get what they want.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-08 06:31 am (UTC)particularly considering her rudeness toward Sam and her less-than-professional take on being a vet.
Not a good introduction to a character, bleh, and SO lazy in terms of script-writing. Some random vet guilts Sam into taking a dog, so he just does? Since when was Sam so suggestible?? It was kind of a cool idea to have them initially hostile and then find a connection, but there wasn't enough development of the relationship that felt emotionally real for it to ring true at all that he would want her (or even for her to want him). Then sometimes she's randomly perfectly sweet and nice ... a very rocky storyline, all around.
had the writers taken the time to at least say Sam tried to find Dean, or even had him somehow having some kind of meltdown at the loss,
YES. Honestly, I'm still half waiting for some big reveal explaining Sam's baffling and highly controversial decisions (especially now that the writers surely know the fans remain in the dark about what might have been motivating him). Maybe S10? That's a long, loooong game if so--basically longer than any ever attempted in a t.v. show, and highly risky, and, well, I think it's just wishful thinking that they will ever explain any of it and is only there to create problems between the boys, who know each other too well to ever misunderstand each other so thoroughly, so it all rings false.
The problem with the entirety of SPN so far is that neither of the boys on whom the show is based EVER get what they want.
This drives me crazy. Nine seasons in, we need some kind of break from all that lack and suffering, indeed. Great comment. :-)
no subject
Date: 2014-04-11 03:30 am (UTC)I liked Lisa, but my big issue with her was that she was willing to subject her son to an alcoholic, traumatized man living with them. If there had been any indication that she had started out being his friend, finding him a place to live and work and then having him move in with them, I would have felt better about it. But she took him in and then let him move them several times due to his paranoia. The Lisa I saw in The Kids are Alright was a devoted mother, who would have put Ben's emotional security first. I bought that Lisa was good for Dean. I didn't buy her doing it while putting her son in a risky situation.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-10 01:34 am (UTC)This. So much. I think they could have actually explored the idea of a relationship, with Sam attempting to keep it going long distance and finally realizing it won't work. (Oh, but wait, they did that with the only character who's allowed to have non-brother relationships: Dean.) It would just need to be with someone I didn't want to see stabbed in the face.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-08 08:21 am (UTC)I don't have any strong feelings about Amelia either way, really -- I'm not clamouring to have her back, but I did feel bad for her -- but Sam not even trying to find out what had happened made no sense in terms of his established characterisation. It didn't fit the way he'd previously reacted to losing people he loved, particularly when there was no concrete reason to think Dean and Cas were dead, and he knew Crowley had Kevin. I could buy him reacting differently this time -- he'd spent the entirety of the last season having his head screwed with, after all -- the show just needed to give him a good reason to think looking was hopeless and show it. But that's the fault of bad writing, not Sam (or Amelia!)
Anyway, that's a really long-winded way of getting around to: Sam really does give a shit, and in the long term I don't know that his conscience would actually let him settle down to a peaceful, normal life when he knows there are still things that go bump in the night out there. But then, I don't think it's really fighting evil that Sam doesn't want; it's all the other stuff that goes along with it, the rootlessness and the deception and the claustrophobic isolation that comes from only having one or two people that can really know him. I've said this before (though I can't remember if it was to you) but personally I'd love to see more of an ensemble cast on the show. There are plenty of badass supporting characters who'd be able to lend a hand if the boys just asked them! If they had more of a team, Sam could step into more of a research role, maybe build a life outside the hunting community while still contributing to it -- and both of the boys could have more meaningful relationships outside of their little co-dependent dyad. Unfortunately the show seems to be going in the opposite direction at the moment, shunting Charlie and Garth and the Trans off to the side, and giving Cas a storyline that barely intersects with the boys'. But hey, I can dream. ;)
no subject
Date: 2014-04-08 06:12 pm (UTC)I really can't fathom why they don't make better use of some of the wonderful characters they've invented, instead killing them or as you say, shunting them off to the side. (And seriously, what are they doing with Cas??)
Thanks for your thoughts.
no subject
Date: 2014-04-08 07:21 pm (UTC)I know, right? I get that the intensity of Sam and Dean's relationship is what has driven the show since the start, and the writers might fear that messing with that would undermine its appeal. But at this point, I wouldn't mind seeing that intensity and angst dialled back and not having them in each other's pockets 24/7, if it meant recapturing some of their early camaraderie when they are together. And I'm sure there must be other fans feeling that way. (Also, I just... desperately want hunter!Linda. So much it's not even funny.)
(And seriously, what are they doing with Cas??)
Who knows?? I mean, he knows where working with Crowley leads, and now his best friend is under the guy's influence. You'd think he might, IDK, check in?
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Date: 2014-04-08 10:19 am (UTC)I liked the season. But it was split into two parts. For me. Sam's way of finding meaning lies in truly becoming a Man of Letters. Thats my curtain! Fic.
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Date: 2014-04-08 06:17 pm (UTC)I like your idea of Sam's truly becoming a Man of Letters. Maybe that was the point of the MoL initially--give Sam a more Sam-like researchy role and let Dean do the hunting he loves so they can both be happy, but instead it's still them hunting together and researching together.
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Date: 2014-04-08 11:05 am (UTC)Sam gets a lot of guff because he just walked away and then was all "Dean and Kevin I found a new life. Sucks to be you, eh?" It was - as many have said- bafflingly out of character for Sam. Not even trying to get Kevin- whom he knew Crowley had? A sentence or two explaining why- he had a breakdown. He searched for a month then just got to the kill himself or walk away point. Anything besides "I fell for a bitchy vet who drinks more than you do, Dean."
Instead Sam came across as bitter that Dean had the nerve to return from Purgatory. Alive. That SOB. Who does Dean think he is? Also frankly Sam is a big boy. He could have walked away. Said "I'll help save Kevin and then I'm gone". Dean's let him go before. He would again.
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Date: 2014-04-08 12:44 pm (UTC)And I think that, like you said, the main reason for this is that Sam's ideology and wishes are often contrary to Dean's. And Dean's wishes are what keeps the Show running.
And even if what Sam is trying to fight for are perfectly reasonable things, like independence or being able to make decisions about his own body, viewers react badly because it's threatening this Show that they enjoy, and it's also threatening this storyline that they enjoy so much (two brothers hunting together and sacrificing themselves for each other). I think most of these Sam bashers would react completely differently if a friend who was in Sam's situation was asking them for advice but it's hard to be objective with a show and a character (Dean) that you love.
Another problem is that we see a lot of Dean's reactions instead of Sam's. So we see Dean being hurt by Sam getting angry about the Gadreel situation, we see Dean being hurt by Sam not looking for Dean in Season 8. But we didn't see anything of how Sam was feeling after Dean disappeared into Purgatory. If we had just seen some flashbacks of Sam looking very upset, talking about how Dean was dead, driving around aimlessly looking upset, whatever, then it would be so much easier for the audience to feel sympathy for Sam. As it is, we have to pay a lot of attention to figure out exactly what was happening with Sam during that year out, for example, it's easy to miss that Sam thought Dean and Cas were dead.
Same with season 9. We have shots of Dean moodily listening to music or Dean's face when Sam walked out the room in 9.14, but we don't see a lot of how upset Sam is feeling about the Gadreel situation.
So as long as the show is focusing on how Dean feels about everything viewers are going to find it easier to sympathise with Dean, and take it out on Sam as the one making Dean feel this way.
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Date: 2014-04-09 02:04 am (UTC)And really? Season of H8? Really?
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Date: 2014-04-09 09:38 pm (UTC)Personally, I LOVED Season 8. And I love it more in retrospect while watching Season 9. It makes PERFECT sense to me now, why Sam reached that point of quasi-suicidal feelings in the finale, why he was with Amelia in the first place, etc.
And what's really sad to me is that on some level, DEAN wants family and normal and everything that goes along with it, too. He just convinced himself at some point in season six - somewhere between his being temporarily turned into a vampire and Lisa and Ben being kidnapped - that he CAN'T have it. :(
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Date: 2014-04-10 10:48 am (UTC)To dismiss Dean as a mindless killing machine only happy when he' killing is to woefully misunderstand his character.
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Date: 2014-04-12 08:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-04-15 09:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-04-11 11:00 am (UTC)As for fans being okay with Cas hooking up, that section of fandom is still furious, yes have Cas have a kind of relationship while he's human, but instead of say, expanding the Nora character, they made Cas losing his 'virginity' a joke, not only that, a Reaper was possessing April, which makes it all kinds of non-con, so that entire episode screwed up not only Castiel's all too brief and wasted human storyline, it screwed with the entire premise of Reapers, that episode so far, is among the most hated this season, and since it's Buckner-RossLeming, no big surprise.
I don't think that fans hate Sam as much as they hate what's being done to him, half of this season he's been oblivious and passed out, then he's been pouting at Dean for six episodes, Jared had some great scenes at the end of last season, and Carver kept saying the characters were becoming mature, having friends, and then this season, he's killed or taken away all those friends, and put Sam and Dean back in a relationship death spiral, all his ideas are merely to flip season five, I would give anything to get Edlund back and get him as showrunner.
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Date: 2014-04-12 08:05 am (UTC)And I think the only woman that could have come between Sam and Dean was Jess and that's only because Sam wasn't with Dean while he was with Jess and they had already parted on a sad note. Because Lisa didn't come between Sam and Dean. She said herself that she knew Dean would leave the minute Sam showed up. And I think it's true. Even if the boys got love interests for good and settled down... my personal head cannon is that nobody will ever be more important than their brother.
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Date: 2014-04-20 06:45 pm (UTC)I, personally, would love for the boys to get a love interest. They both do need and deserve some female companionship, and the stability that a woman can provide. I loved Lisa, and thought she was great for Dean and would have loved for Show to find a way for that relationship to work out somehow. But, alas, they didn't, and now seeing where Dean is in his life, I can see that a female companion would probably not be a good thing at the moment.
As for Sam, the Amelia storyline was a disaster from the get-go. She was first introduced as this harsh bitch that belittled and bullied Sam in so many ways. The fact that they hooked up a little while later just really does not compute. I always thought Sam could do better, and I never felt that Jared had great chemistry with the actress that played Amelia. I always thought their scenes were a little stilted and awkward. So, the fact that I hated Amelia from the start, because of how they introduced her, caused me to really loathe the Sam/Amelia storyline.
Also, Sam not looking at all for Dean once he and Cas disappeared at the end of Season 7 did totally seem out of character. Sam did have other people that he could turn to, and the fact that Sam didn't do anything or make any effort in finding Dean really rubbed me sideways. I am a Dean!girl, but do love Sam, because Dean loves Sam. The Sam at the end of Season 6 that was willing to take on his Hell memories because he wouldn't leave his brother out there alone - where in the world was THIS Sam?! The Sam in Season 7 that was constantly bucking up his brother near the end of the season because Dean was growing weary, the Sam that said a family and college wasn't part of his life anymore in S4/S5 - where was THAT Sam?! It seems that Sam at the beginning of Season 8 had a lobotomy or something and became a totally different character. I had problems with that. And then, to rub the would a little more raw - Sam had to constantly rub in Dean's face that at soon as they found Kevin and everything that he was going to go his own way. The fact that he was more or less rubbing his "apple pie life" in Dean's face during that year they were apart while Dean was slugging in out in Purgatory just didn't sit well with me. I tried very very hard to try and see things from Sam's perspective, and while I was somewhat satisfied, I was never complete satisfied with Sam's turn about characterization. And that has just bled into Sam this season. I can understand him being hurt and feeling betrayed as to Dean's actions, but for him to be so cold and without feeling towards his brother, seems out of place. When Dean told Sam in S5 he couldn't trust him, Dean was still willing to work with him and be a brother. But Sam, didn't even want to be a brother anymore, and that is really beyond hurtful.
It wouldn't have hurt Show to add a scene or some lines to explain Sam's characterization, why he didn't look for Dean, why he is the way he is, but they don't. So, I do think that the writers have unnecessarily generated much of the Sam hate that is out there. I just want the brothers together again, caring for each other the way they used to. I hope we get there at some point.
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Date: 2014-11-11 10:38 pm (UTC)My head-canon explanation for Sam's behavior is that of the two brothers, he's the one who is more likely to change his behavior to attempt not to repeat past mistakes. Sam reflects on his own life more than Dean does, and he usually makes good decisions, and the way I see his choices when Dean went missing is that he wasn't running to anything, he was running away: he was running away from the road he went down the last time he lost Dean, the road of darkness and obsession and desperation that culminated in raising Lucifer from Hell.
Of course an entirely rational person might point out that there was maybe some middle ground there, that could have involved maybe checking his phone messages, but I personally can forgive Sam for being an all-or-nothing wreck.
I haven't rewatched season 8 at all yet, though (I only got into Supernatural a year ago) so I don't know if this thought meshes well with with the details onscreen, and I do agree that the writers might have done better at elucidating what the heck was up. Amelia was pretty meh to me while I was watching (I loved Benny a lot!) but I've since come to like her a little more, or at least feel she was underutilized in ways that I want to find more fanfic of? It seems like she should be a great opportunity for outside-POV (I was reading your stories in the first place because I LOVE outside-POV, BTW) and also completely unrelatedly I am fond of setups like the one where the woman commits to a new relationship only her husband wasn't actually dead! I would totally have loved to see, like, Don trying to figure out who the hell this Sam Winchester guy was.
Hope I'm not dropping into conversation to totally randomly out of the blue!
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Date: 2014-11-12 07:19 am (UTC)Clearly, I dropped the ball on responding to comments on this post, which I feel bad about; I kind of dropped off the face of the earth right after I posted it, so it's nice to have the conversation addressed again. Many people had great points, including you--I love your idea that Sam was trying his best NOT to repeat the mistakes of the past, even if that meant maybe going too far in the other direction. That seems very Sam, very Winchester, and makes perfect sense in context. I think that may well become my own headcanon!
It's SOO nice to actually read someone saying they'd like to see MORE of Amelia in fic--sooo many people say they hate her and never wanted to hear another word about her again. That's an excellent point, though, that she was under-utilized. It WOULD have been great to see her used for outside POV, or to explore Sam's damage and mental state more explicitly, or to explore how the Winchesters struggle to connect intimately with anyone other than one another, or ... for anything, really. I liked Amelia, but after they shuffled her summarily off the screen, I couldn't help wondering why they introduced her character in the first place, because it served little purpose in the end except to piss Dean off (completely unfairly/irrationally, imo, unless the writers were giving a big nod to the Sam/Dean girls).
And I'm thrilled to learn of someone new who enjoys my fic! Truly, few things give me greater joy. I hope you find lots of fic (and/or metas) you like, and it's nice to e-meet you.
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Date: 2016-10-18 09:35 pm (UTC)I ended up failing to find the kind of Sam/Amelia fic I was looking for, so I sulked a while and then, in fits and starts and with much cursing of my own inadequacy, I wrote it.
It gets kinda intense what with all the damage they have to explore, but just in case you're still interested…?
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Date: 2016-10-19 02:35 am (UTC)FYI, the fan I know who LOVES Amelia and probably has written fic about her is
Thank you for coming all the way back here to tell me about this! Checking it out right now ....
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Date: 2016-10-19 03:13 am (UTC)I happened to see and remember this while searching my inbox (which contains everything ever) so hi! 😄
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Date: 2016-11-04 04:21 am (UTC)Thanks for linking me to yours--it was so good!
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Date: 2015-04-27 04:54 am (UTC)I read that the writers (I believe Jared said this somewhere) were going to have Amelia turn out to all be a big hallucination/dream/made up thing, and that Sam really hadn't been with anyone (hence the weirdly bright and dreamy picnic scene, among others) but they just couldn't make it work/got scared of it/something.
But - yeah. Show fans don't 'hate women' - they just hate poorly-written, what is the point of this character? women who are tossed in there in some desperate attempt to make the 'boy' fans more interested. Or something.
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Date: 2016-10-19 02:42 am (UTC)THIS IS FASCINATING that Amelia was going to turn out to be a dream. I always wondered what was up with the weird dreamy flashback scenes--this helps it make some sort of sense, especially if it was a hallucination. Wouldn't it have been something if he turned out to be hallucinating about a real person, thinking they were having a relationship when they totally weren't, stalking her or talking nonsense to her and such?
I can see why they got scared of the idea, though--fans tend to HATE things that turned out to be dreams. (There was an entire part of a season on ST:Voyager the fans are still furious about that I actually loved, if you're at all a Star Trek fan.)
This long later, I can happily say we actually now have some recurring female characters! Even now, one who isn't evil (in Mary--I hope she sticks around a while)!
No post or comment is ever too old to comment on, that's my philosophy. :-)
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Date: 2016-10-19 04:41 am (UTC)But yes! Dream stuff usually turns out so very badly, so i can get the fan-hate. It only works if the dream stuff is *weird*, in my opinion. Off kilter or something.
I have loved most of the female characters on Show. I loved Jo *after* they stopped trying to make her super-Barbie-hunter and Dean's soulmate, and I always loved Meg (though second Meg more).
I have never liked Ruby in any incarnation, but that's just me, i hate that trope.
I have great hopes for Mary.