brightly_lit | 9.04, or, the writers are even shipping Men of Letters from the 1930s!

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9.04, or, the writers are even shipping Men of Letters from the 1930s!

Actually, I loved it. (I think only one other person on my f-list did.) Sure, there were a couple of cringey moments--I was taken back to '70s shows like the Bionic Man with the cheesy "possessed" voices ... although I was pleasantly taken back to the '70s with Charlie coming back to life saying, "Merry Christmas"--just like Frosty the Snowman! And the wicked witch went a little over the top once or twice ("top"? what's this "top" of which you speak?), but hey, we needed a good evil witch cackle in there, I figure.

The part that got on my nerves the most was actually the whole "it's not sexist!!" speech--'cos if male writers put these words in the mouths of female actors, it MUST be true, right?? ("Well, of course it's sexy. What's the matter with being sexy?") Also, sadly, I have to agree with all the people saying Jarpad and Jackles were really phoning it in here--worse than I've ever seen them do before ... but I thought the direction was spectacular (I adore Singer's direction, in this case especially the shout-outs to old movies about intrigue, like the Men of Letters and their ritual at the beginning to turn on the bunker, the old lightbulbs and everything), some of the effects were cool, and the script had a beautiful symmetry. And, above all, props to Props!!

Recently I realized that one of the reasons I was so dissatisfied with S8 was because they seemed to completely throw the basic premise of SPN from ~1.05 through S7 out the window, which is, using the monster of the week as a metaphor for what's going on in the relationship between the brothers. When they started using it as a metaphor is when the show really impressed me and drew me in, and now that they barely do that anymore, it takes a really great story to make me feel fulfilled by an episode. This ep was the first time in a long time where you could say the MoW story was even in any way related to the issues between the brothers, so that pleased me.

Loved Dorothy, loved all we learned about the bunker and MoL history, enjoyed Charlie (even though I'm not the biggest Charlie fan), Sheppard was as awesome as ever, loved the clarity and precision in the way it was shot, love that Sam is getting suspicious ... I just loved it!

And next episode looks UTTERLY ridiculous ... but potentially awesome.

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I liked it! The Men of Letters have a Batphone!

LOL, all I could think of watching the wicked witch was "what an eccentric performance".

I love, love, loved Crowley and the witch interacting. Mark Sheppard really is phenomenal.

The Batphone, YES! I loved that it didn't have a dial or any numbers on it, just the MoL logo--I loved all those little details in the props.

Eccentric, yes. I'm reminded of that part in the S8 gag reel where Jensen's saying, "You told me to do as much as I could! Is it too much?" I'm guessing they told the wicked witch to do "as much as she could" ....

Crowley and the witch! "Big fan of your work ...."

Apparently this episode was filmed DURING VanCon and I was just like, oh heavens above, how did anyone on this show survive that week. XP Though my dissatisfactions are all script-based, rather than performance-based.

But anyway, yes, as per the previous sentence, I'm in the "didn't like this episode" camp. I'm surprised by your flist, though! Mine was fairly unanimous in their overall enjoyment of it (though I'll admit that my flist is also fairly consciously cultivated to be that way, XD), so reading everyone's reactions and talking it out has been really excellent for me. \O/ Yay! Certainly it's one of those episodes that I enjoy discussing a lot more than actually watching.

I agree with what you said here about the MotWs--I really adore that aspect, too. My memory of the vast majority of S8 is too poor to speak to what its MotWs did, but maybe that's why. XD For S7, at least in its first half, that aspect of the MotW cases was handled uh, pretty poorly for the most part. (Case--->Sam verbally relating it to them at the end, lolz) And while I don't think Show's objective success with that balancing act has necessarily been all that pristine from the get-go, their success in these things is not something that tops my list of needs, let's be real. The sheer fact of their existence, however, is always a pleasure, though! <333

Ah, tell me more about your feeling about the first half of S7 in that regard, because my feeling about (the first half of) S7 is that they finally got BACK to the metaphorical aspect after getting away from it. And I didn't understand this part (Case--->Sam verbally relating it to them at the end, lolz) but I want to!

Oh, hahaha, my beef with S7 is that they were TRYING to get back to that aspect, but their execution of this was laughably rough. XD In my mind, early S2 and early S7 have this in common--that is, they are the Seasons of Talks In, On, or Over the Impala. Not that these aren't ubiquitous throughout the series, but nothing will ever manage them so reliably. (Which is why I found 6x15's reference to those scenes, and having to cut them, so ridiculously amusing.)

Like, take 7x05. Blah blah blah witches. Tag scene where Sam relates their day of MotW to a similar arc in their own lives.

7x06, the MotW actually was the Winchesters, so who needs metaphors when you have shapeshifting Leviathans, hee.

7x07, blah blah blah magicians. Tag scene where Sam relates this to themselves.

7x08 was wonderful! And fandom hated it. XD But it did have a Sam Speech at the end, too (not to be confused with a Dean Speech, haha).

Basically, there was a lot of verbal propping up involved, and as much as I am quite fond of Talks In, On, or Over the Impala, it kind of defeats the point of a metaphor if you go at it too hard in the explication of said metaphor. XD

Ah, yes yes, this is true. I'm picking up what you're putting down, now.

(Which is why I found 6x15's reference to those scenes, and having to cut them, so ridiculously amusing.)

I thought this was hysterical, too, for the very same reason.

(I adored 7.08!!)

(I adored 7.08!!)

YOU ARE ONLY THE SECOND PERSON IN THE ENTIRE WORLD I'VE EVER HEARD SAY THAT. *_____* <3333333 (The first person I met to say that said it like, two weeks ago. So that was TWO YEARS of no one saying it to me!)

What the-- WHY DO PEOPLE HATE THAT EPISODE SO MUCH? I've written MULTIPLE fics referencing it, because it's BRILLIANT. We'll hunker here and love it together. <333 Us against the world! Seriously, do you have any idea why people objected to it so much?

Internalized fannish insecurities wrt Becky, I assume. Other than that, I know people who object to it on grounds of making light of Sam's "date rape," and not handling date rape tactfully. Which on one hand I can understand, and on another, I really don't hold with, because personally, I did see a lot of tact with regard to balancing the humor and the gravitas of the episode, and I think they pulled that off really well. I can't speak for someone who might have experienced real date rape in real life, but I also feel like the episode made a point of Very Pointedly not bearing any sort of resemblance to real date rape in real life for exactly that reason. And even if the episode was largely fun and light, I think Sam's reactions speak for themselves in terms of how unwarranted he found the situation, and it wasn't at all a joke to him, or Dean, or even to Becky herself. And the fact that they react so straight-facedly and so normally to a premise that is so wildly zany serves as counterpoint to the humor of the episode for me. (Even as it increases the humor of the episode, because treating the ridiculous as normal is a Great Thing SPN does--and it had better, given that it's a show about the supernatural...)

tl;dr I think many people hate 7x08 because they either see too much of themselves in Becky and don't like it (and externalize that by talking about how little resemblance Becky bears to fandom, wich is a flat-out lie, XD), or because of insecurities wrt Sam, the emasculation of Sam, the trivialization of Sam's Feelings and Pain. And a small sliver hate 7x08 because of intense personal reasons which are not to be made light of. But I think mostly it's the former two reasons, which I will certainly make light of I don't even care. XD

I dunno, I really didn't feel like the episode was doing Sam any injury. But then, I have an extremely positive, extremely confident belief in Sam, so maybe that has something to do with that? (Which isn't to say that "I just love Sam more than they do!" Because for most of the year I have a fairly negative, extremely unconfident non-belief in Dean, and I am certain that I am 100% a Deangirl; it's just a different kind of love. XP)

Internalized fannish insecurities wrt Becky, I assume.

Yeeeahhh, that's all I could think, either. It's not like the first time I saw Becky, I didn't think they were gently making fun of the fans, but obviously she's over the top, and more than that, she's a real character they treat with as much respect as any other. If she'd been a cardboard cut-out, a boring cliche, then I might have been offended, but Becky belongs in the SPN universe--in fact, once they brought in Chuck, there almost HAD to be a Becky.

talking about how little resemblance Becky bears to fandom, wich is a flat-out lie, XD

Bwaha!

For that matter, I'd go so far as to say 7.08 is Becky finally coming into her own and being a badass, after a fashion. She takes action rather than sitting at home mooning over Sam and Dean. To complain about Sam being taken advantage of seems like willfully ignoring the reality of the situation. It's humorous, as you point out. The episode makes clear they never consummate, and above all, though Sam clearly wants to be let go so he can get back to his life, never does he exhibit any sort of fear for his personal safety. (I thought they handled it wonderfully, too.)

I can't help but think it's part of the "get your hands off my man!" phenomenon Jensen mentioned at a con, where the fans get mad if the boys get romantically involved. I don't want to believe this is true of fandom ... but all the evidence suggests it is. I mean, how could you come up with a more likable, real, tough but loving character than Lisa?? And I guess the fans were terrible to her. (I also want to believe it's mostly teenagers doing this, because that seems perfectly reasonable when you're 15; not so much when you're a grown woman.)

As for "the emasculation of Sam"?? I've gotten the vibe people didn't like that, either, and ... really?? That seems like an insult to Sam. Like you, I have great confidence in him, in large part because he has such confidence in himself. Sam is perfectly able to take care of himself, and it's obnoxious (and sexist against men) to suggest that the situation could make him "less of a man."

In terms of discomfort with the imbalance of sexual power, I thought the episode broke ground by switching genders from how such situations are usually presented. We've seen vamps and dominatrices, sure, but getting roofied in reverse? All but never. I thought it was, if anything, sexually empowering, for BOTH Becky and Sam. No one got hurt. I thought it was far more a statement (another one of those emotional realities so few other shows ever go into) on the desperation to make someone love you and the damage that can do, which only a horror show can safely, humorously, address. (Which serves as a metaphor for the way Dean is trying to force Sam to stay "married" to him and hunting! ... though I don't think the writers intended it that way.) Poor Dabb/Loflin; they did such a good job and have been so maligned for this ep.

Ahh, it feels good to get to rave about this episode finally!

I'm just nodding and whispering 'yes yes yes!' to myself throughout this entire comment. XD <3

And yes--I meant to mention the fact that the situation itself was harmless, and at no point did anyone--including Sam--actually construe it as such. Which I thought was really well done.

I'm actually inclined to believe that that WAS intentional! Maybe not to the degree that I felt it, but I think that those parallels were conscious on the part of the writing staff, especially given where the episode is placed in the season/series as a whole. So for me 7x08 ended up being this great, cathartic moment because what I saw in Becky and Sam in that episode was basically an excision of what I saw (and continue to see) in Dean and Sam. It's not the whole of Dean and Sam's relationship, but it's a particularly slippery, insidious part of it, and to see its metonym play out, isolated as it was in this humorous escapade, is quite possibly the ONLY way Show could have managed to work with that. (In the same way that Ezekiel is beginning to function as a similar set piece in S9, for instance.)

In short, everything fandom saw in Becky in 7x08, I felt strongly about Dean in 7x04/7x05/7x06/7x07 (and felt prior to that, and continue to feel after that, but at much more manageable levels, XD). To see the problematics of that kind of behavior acknowledged was worlds of satisfying (and perhaps because of, and not in spite of, the oblique route SPN chose to tell that part of the story).

My Sera!stanism is showing, but since she's the only person who fought hard to get show to recognize and avoid consent issues when it came to having vessel!sex (apparently during 4x09, Sera was adamant about making sure Ruby was the only one in her vessel before she had not-rape chair!sex with Sam), I'm willing to believe that she and her writing team also paid due diligence to similar issues wrt Dean and Sam's erotic codependence. ;P

Isn't it kind of sad that you have to justify loving Sam?

In what way? I didn't really feel like I was justifying much of anything. XD Well, except for my love of 7x08, ofc.

ISN'T IT?? Poor Sam. :-( :-(

OK, I hope I’m not going to be just repeating the discussion y’all have already had, but I WANT TO PLAY!!! Because I love—LOVE!!!!—S7 Time for a Wedding!! It’s in my top 5 favorite episodes, I’d say. I ADORE Becky, and I think it’s ridiculous that people are so insecure about her. Stand up and be yourself, fer gadsake. That’s what Becky has to learn to do! Maybe fans are like Becky, maybe they’re not, but she’s AWESOME (not to mention actually gorgeous, sweater vests notwithstanding) so it shouldn’t matter. Also, HELLO, THIS IS CALLED HUMOR. That episode was SO HILARIOUS, and if people didn’t have a problem with the much more ridiculous, harder to justify with canon French Mistake, wherein they actually KILLED MISHA (I’m in the minority because I actually DIDN’T much like that episode), then why is Time for a Wedding, a completely canon-compliant, character-exploring, plot-advancing premise, where no character we love was harmed in any real way, so much less acceptable? I have no patience with the whole silly, squealy teenager idea of “hands off my man” either. I want the characters I love to have love and happiness. Also, HOW SEXY was it to watch Sam getting roofie-kissed by Becky as he tries to fight off the spell? I LOVED that moment, and Jared played it incredibly well.

You already talked about this, but I thought the episode was totally self-aware with regard to the moral problem of Becky roofie-ing and kidnapping Sam. It’s not like she’s rewarded for this behavior! Her need for the validation of her peers is her tragic flaw, and she has to grow through that. And she DOES make the right decision in the end (though one could argue that this is self-serving), and she saves Sam’s life, so what excuse is there to hate her? How many of us would NOT be at least a little bit tempted, not to sell our souls of course, but to use that love spell on Sam? Is there not a whole genre (much reviled though it is) of fanfiction dedicated to the idea that if (whichever boy we love) really knew us, he would love us? (The love spell would only work if he really loved her deep down!) I think it’s the inability to admit that to ourselves—the sneaking suspicion some fans have that, in Becky’s shoes, they might not have one so well—that might be the real problem.

Because BECKY. If I were blonde, or could in any way pull off blonde, I would SO COSPLAY BECKY. She is THE BOMB. And she has the honor of being the one and only Mrs. Winchester, ever. (LOVED that moment in 9.04, btw).

OK, I guess I’ll go back to work—I can rest easy now that my adoration of Time for a Wedding is known. Thanks for letting me play. :-D <3

(I will say, I do very much ADORE 6x15, and rewatch it ridiculously often, XD.)

But I saw 7x08 again recently, and I really enjoy every moment of that episode! The only thing I could have done without was Dean's exceptional talkativity in one of the very first scenes because what even, Dean, what even. XP

YOUR ADORATION OF TIME FOR A WEDDING IS NOW INDEED KNOWN, AND IT MAKES ME VERY HAPPYYYYYYYY <333333333333333333333333

I enjoyed the performances in 6.15, and there were lots of lines that made me laugh, but as a premise/episode/any sort of complete anything, I thought it was thin, thin, thin. Also there were things that just annoyed me that didn't seem to bother anyone else, like the callous cheapness of life (the way they killed "Misha" was really awful, though he seemed to enjoy it) that sort of felt like writers' cynicism about their job/industry-- which I wouldn't necessarily object to, but in this case it felt ugly. It was weird to me that an episode obviously designed to be light-hearted would have so much ugliness in feeling. But I digress.

YAAAAAAY, Wedding fans! WE ARE AWESOME. How'd you feel about S8, Bitten?

Hee, you have the same opinion of 6x15 as my sister does. What I thought was brilliant about it though, was that it didn't speak so much to SPN itself as it spoke to, well, us as a fandom, and a wildly creative and opinionated one at that. XD Because SO much of that was things that we'd said, or hypothesized. XD The whole thing with no one knowing or respecting Sera and Magical Sheriff Kripke Come to Save the Day was totally based on accusations fandom had made, in addition to the other writing stuff. So really, we brought that on ourselves; I feel like if it were true, it wouldn't have made it into the ep, given, you know. Everything that made it into the ep. Misha's death may have been a play on the big movement to get Misha off the show (thanks fandom), but I don't know enough about the anti-Misha portion of fandom to speak to that. But I think the Sera thing might be one of my favorite parts, because I definitely know that that was a Thing. XD

(Of course, if they did a similar episode now, then it'd be a campaign to get Misha back on the show, and also to make Destiel canon. Ha!)

WE ARE INDEED SO AWESOME. FANBASE OF THREE. \O/

Tbh I thought 8x04 was boring, though I'd certainly be interested in hearing what you loved about it. Because it's a shame on my end, because I adore 3x13 to pieces, and I feel like it's a pretty similar style. (But the segment of Paranormal Activity 4 I saw was also very boring to me, so maybe 3x13's style is not actually as similar as I think it is, and it's a genre thing?) I felt like in order for 8x04 to really work, the dialogue would have had to have been a lot tighter than it was.

But I'd just come back from Russia at that point, and was very much not wearing my SPN pants at the time (IT TOOK SO LONG TO GET THOSE BACK), so maybe my feeling would be different now. It's the only episode of SPN I've only seen once!

Wait no, I've also only sen 8x15 once, but that's different. XP

I had so much fun talking about eps with you that I'm going to paste my comments and add to them to make a discussion post. I will credit you and the other folks I've been chatting with as having started the discussion, and of course feel free to cut 'n paste your comments as comments to the post, if you're so inclined! Didn't figure you'd mind, as a lover of discussion, but if you do, let me know. :-) Hope you're enjoying a good hiatus from LJ and will have lots of fun stuff to read/respond to when you get back.

LOL the latest replies on LJ ever, nearly two full weeks later. XP

Can I guess whine at you for a second? I'm gonna whine at you for a second, though you can opt out of reading through this at any moment, for sure. XD It was a very productive hiatus from LJ, if longer than I expected it to be. I think I've figured out why I'm so resolutely monofandom; I seriously couldn't transition from mindset to mindset adeptly enough to manage anything else. Because I boxed out LJ and SPN and all that from my life out of RL necessity, or "switched fandoms" so to speak, from SPN to RL (lol), but I did it so effectively that now I'm having trouble finding my way back all over again. WHICH MAKES ME SAD because fandom is one of those things where your level of participation determines how much you get out of it, so my wading around the edges thing I'm sort of doing really isn't doing a whole lot for me. But I can't figure out how to gettt baaaackkkkk sob.

THE MOST LAME OF ALL LAME PROBLEMS. This is, incidentally, what I meant about my SPN pants and not having them on. 'Cause right now I'm just like "BUT WHERE DID MY PANTS GO. BUT WAIT WHY DO I EVEN WANT TO WEAR THE PANTS." So frustrating!

Man, that so wasn't whining. If you want to learn about whining, I CAN BRING THE WHINGE. But you probably don't, so... ;-)

I definitely relate! I was uninvolved for quite awhile myself, and had to learn that lesson of getting out of it what you put into it (except when you get back significantly less than you put into it). LOL, sometimes we all want to go pantsless for awhile, and WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT? ;-)

But I do find that my level of happiness is often really affected by my involvement in/reaction to fandom, perhaps to an unhealthy extent. :-) When that happens, I try to take a step back and remember it's all only for my enjoyment, so if I'm NOT enjoying it, I should, oh I dunno, go do something else. :-) So anyway, I definitely understand, but you'll put those magically tailored pants back on when you're ready, and hopefully they'll give you yards of sartorial pleasure. ;-)

Oh, and because I've seen it come up in fandom today, what were your thoughts on 7x14, Plucky Pennywhistle? I sort of feel like it's the Sam!girl's 4x06 (Yellow Fever), in that its reception is (possibly disproportionately?) divided/fervent.

Personally, I loved it, and I thought it was a great Sam episode. But like 7x08, I feel like I've mostly head people revile it for being insensitive to Sam's plight, and making Dean an unsympathetic dick who OOC-ly abused Sam by dumping him at Plucky's all the time. Which, idk, I guess I have trouble really seeing that (though I do keep reading reactions so I can try to figure it out). I think the Sam bit overlaps with 7x08; as for the Dean bit, I didn't find that terribly OOC?

Like, I don't think Dean is (saliently) an unsympathetic dick, and that's what it was IC. I just don't think occasionally finding alternative babysitting for your sibling is the unforgivable crime lot of people see it as. (And at 12, it's not like Sam was a baby?) I don't think that strategy would earn your glowing, A+ reviews from the Hypothetical Committee on Awesome Care-Taking, but hey. XP What's the life skills equivalent of "Cs Get Degrees"?

But then, I'm often not the most sensitive person in the world, so I always feel like I should double-back and figure out what other people think.

tl;dr I WANNA HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS ON ALL THE EPISODES. Or 7x14, whichever. XDD

I wanna weigh in on this one! Because I have strong feelings about Plucky Pennywhistle and I do think it made Dean seem like a dick, but that isn't OOC. It seemed so much in character for Dean to dump Sam at these places, and I was glad the writers acknowledged what their relationship was probably actually like, because no way it was totally this glowing, 24/7 protective-older-brother scenario, especially with the kind of pressure John put on Dean about Sam. What I had a problem with was Dean's present-day dickish insensitivity to Sam's clown terror, throwing a clown at him after Sam so nicely finally gets him his fucking slinky ... but this fic (http://brightly-lit.livejournal.com/16745.html) was my attempt at a fix-it for that, and nothing got fixed, because as I tried to write it, I couldn't find an in-character way for Dean to act any different. He just really is that much of a dick, I guess. :->

/opens fic in tab~

I mean, I dunno, I don't really have particularly strong feelings about Dean in 7x18; mostly through that whole episode I just sort of deep-ended it into how amazing and adorable Sam is in turns, + love for the manager and the mother/child side characters. This is where the "I'm not the most sensitive person in the world" thing comes in, I guess; I don't have any phobias, in the true phobia sense (I have a lot of irrational fears, like of handling meat, mirrors in dark rooms, things in aggregate [like combinations of two repellant blood types under microscopes, macro images of molecules that make up things that appear smooth, finely minced garlic frying in oil, ants, baby spiders on the back of mommy spiders, etc.] but I fee like a phobia is different than that, and I... have a lot of trouble remembering to be sympathetic of them. Granted, my sister has a phobia of buttons, and I don't go around specifically buying her clothing with buttons on it, but I definitely laugh when the situation arises, because I lack the capacity to understand it. I think Dean's deal is not only does he lack the capacity to understand a lot of things about Sam (clowns being the least of these things, ha), but on top of that he does not understand, like at all, how to handle that. But--how would you even call that?--satirical behavior is fairly safe, in that it's superficial and distanced, and even if it's not the greatest response, it's also unlikely to be the worst possible response, so it's kind of like hedging your bets. (Even if lol it's probably closer to being the worst response than it is to being the greatest one. But I think Sam's fine with that, as people often are.)

I DON'T KNOW WHERE I WAS GOING WITH THAT, tl;dr I think a lot about Sam and Dean in ways that are not directly applicable or useful. LOL I think I just miss fandom and want to talk...regardless of whether I have anything legitimate to say. XD (You are welcome to let me know when you suspect this might be occurring at any point now or in the future, btw.)

LOL wait I've read that fic! I'd forgotten that it was specifically tagged to 7x18!

I loved Plucky Pennywhistle! The humor was fantastic. That clown fight scene—I felt so bad for Sam, but OMG, so funny. The glitter! And I kind of had a thing for the stoner, Native American PP employee Sam interrogated. He was HOT. :-) When I’m in the mood to re-watch and I want a humor episode, it’s one of my go-tos!

I completely disagree that Dean’s using PP as a babysitter is OOC. Just the opposite—he was a kid himself, after all! Where would he have learned better habits? Because John would probably do that, too, and it would be far from the worst parenting he’d done. Yes, Dean is a caretaker by nature, but not a particularly great one; he didn’t have the tools to be. I thought the idea of him leaving Sam at PP was totally realistic, as was his not knowing, even into adulthood, that Sam hated it. Really, THIS is what people think makes Dean insensitive? He’s done so many worse things! Also… I dunno, I love this about his character. It feels totally real to me.

I find fandom interesting in this way. People have such opposite views, and I think some of it depends on your life experience. Anyone who was forced to take care of a younger relation while still a kid themselves will understand and sympathize with Dean’s plight. Dean doesn’t get enough sympathy, IMO, for having been forced into that caretaker role and feeling that was his only value. If anything, it rides the line of being unrealistic that he did as good a job as he did—but that, too, is very Dean. I can relate to his situation all too well—my sister had a baby at 17, when I was 8. She was, needless to say, not very interested in parenting, and then she wasn’t around. I shared a room with her and the baby, and ended up taking care of him more often than she did, and far more often than MY parents did after she was gone and they adopted my nephew. The situation recurred when I was 16 and she left another of her children with us. I loved my niece and nephew, but 8 and 16 year-olds don’t make good parents, and the situation naturally creates resentment. I look back on some of the “parenting” decisions I made and cringe. And Dean didn’t have the resources I had, and didn’t even have any idea what a normal childhood was like, so how could he be held to any kind of parenting standard? He did pretty damn well, all things considered, but as brightly-lit pointed out, he’s kind of a dick as an adult. So what would be OOC, exactly? I also agree with her that the most dickish thing was giving him the damn clown doll, when Sam got him something nice that he actually wanted. But again, that’s so Dean!

Anyway, I loved the episode. As for being a sensitive person, who can say? Sensitivity can take many forms. I consider myself VERY sensitive, and I didn’t have a problem with Dean’s characterization in this episode.
Glad to give you my thoughts, and get yours, on any and all episodes! I’ll be interested to see what you think of Bitten if you re-watch it. I think it’s a great stand-alone, outside the S8 context. Funny that it’s the only one you’ve watched only once (8.15 totally doesn’t count- UGH). I would have thought you’d like it, since it focuses on minor characters and I know you generally dig those. But I’ve never seen a found/video footage film like Paranormal Activity, except Chronicle, which I think might have sort of inspired Bitten and which was a very well-made movie. I didn’t end up exactly *liking* Chronicle, but I did think it was a great film, if that makes sense.

This is not going to be very helpful in keeping you off LJ until Thursday. Good luck with that. ;-)

<333333333333

And like, I mean, even in the most normative childhood situations--at least, I consider my childhood pretty damn normative? I grew up with responsible middle-class parents, both highly educated, with one working and one stay-at-home parenting; and I dutifully went to school, did extracurriculars, and exited childhood when my parents were in the middle of the most sedate, vanilla divorce proceedings of all time--I feel like other people's normals were different than mine are. Even from my sister, for instance, who had basically the same childhood. I DISCOVERED, in our 8x23 blowout (more crying, fewer life-ending trials) earlier this year arguing about what was and was not acceptable behavior, what was and was not traumatic about growing up, what could and could not be considered "words of encouragement" (I basically told her that the best thing anyone had ever said to me was "you can do better than that" so she should suck it up, and then she told me that the best thing anyone had ever said to her was "thank you" because it made her feel valued and I had never valued her and SHE CERTAINLY DIDN'T VALUE ME, AND HAD NOTHING TO THANK ME FOR, etc.), exactly how variably people can process things, and derive norms from them. I've since determined that if my parents' child-rearing practices lacked for something, I guess it would've been emotional support. Because for me it was like, well, I guess that's not really important wevs, and my sister went off and found it very strongly elsewhere (and joined a cult--our 8x23 argument I mentioned earlier had originally been about said cult, which is how these things tie together). Haha thanks parents. XP

But I digress. As far as perceptions of Show go, and fandom's perceptions go, I really do try to be sensitive to the reality of these different vantage points in fandom, and the impressions of people coming from backgrounds much less adjacent than mine to my sister's. But I think a part of me will always think, at the back of my mind, I do not understand what the big fucking deal is. /O\ Hence the "not very sensitive."

Anyway, Weechesters and Plucky Pennywhistle. I'm kind of like, man, if I find some act incredibly mundane, even with my normative, vanilla upbringing, I can't imagine such a thing would even rate for the Winchesters. Like when we were little, my siblings and I would lie cylindrical wooden poles across an empty planter box, mount them while wearing tomato cages, and then whale on each other with fennel (basically, long-ass licorice-scented switches--that perfect combination of stiffness and give to make it really hurt, haha) until someone fell off the cylinders and into the mud. SO I MEAN, IF THIS IS WHAT WE WERE DOING. Surely Plucky was one of the more reasonable activities Dean could have thought up? It was indoors, there was (bad) food, and it was light and well-supervised, even if it could not possibly be farther from anything Sam seems like he'd enjoy. And I mean... Sam was 12; it's not like he was helpless. I was shepherding all of my siblings by that age, and my brother now (he just turned 13) has definitely been going about his business, managing alone at home, and doing whatever for quite some time. And I can assure the entire world that my brother is nowhere near as perceptive, resourceful, or worldy as Sam was at any age. XD If my brother is grown-up enough to manage himself, I'm sure Sam was fine. If PP was seriously as deeply traumatic for Sam (thereby making it extremely irresponsible of Dean), I don't think Sam would have stood for it. So idk I guess I just think it's more likely it was one of those things where it's like, man, that really fucking sucked, I am never going to get over how much I hated it like I REALLY HATED THAT but ultimately... s h r u g???

Ah, family. Always tricky. The way that reality coincides with the Winchesters is that communication (even as dysfunctional as screaming at each other) is the only way things ever get resolved, WHICH IS WHY SAM AND DEAN NEVER RESOLVE ANYTHING. I guess if they did, the interpersonal conflict that fuels the show would be gone, and the show might lose some of its teeth. But that doesn't stop me from wishing the would just TALK TO EACH OTHER, as I always wished my family would just talk/listen to me. :-} We love our fucked up boys, but I think it would be a little more satisfying if they would SOMETIMES, even if accidentally, grow through some of their Issues. They used to more often...

anyway... love hearing your thoughts, thanks for the chat! <3

And I know that this is the part where people would argue that no, in fact, it doesn't matter how perceptive, resourceful, or worldy Sam was, the conditions of his relationship to his family, etc. made it such that it would have been a lot more complicated than that, and the fact that he endured Plucky doesn't mean he was cool with it, or even grudgingly but passively annoyed with it--that his inaction does not discount how awful that could have been.

Which, granted. And I do think that these things tread uncomfortably close to really damaging issues that people face in real life particularly as the series goes on. (I listened to a TedTalk recently about patterns of domestic abuse, and felt uncomfortable parallels to Sam's various situations--and I am hardly the first--even though I am not of the group that finds Sam's storyline out and out that of someone caught in a terrible, abusive relationship to his family.) And I realize that it's not adequate to just say "but the Winchesters' situation is different." And I do think it's important and worthwhile to keep these other factors under consideration.

But honestly, I don't think that that's the way Sam reads this. (To which the opposition says, well, Sam can be wrong! He can be deluded! And yes, absolutely. But he's also allowed to be right.) And it just didn't seem like PP was really that much of a Big Fuckin' Deal to him, just like Becky's whole plan in 7x08 didn't seem like a big fuckin' deal.

tl;dr I think part of this is actually responding more to S9 arguments I've seen floating around elsewhere than anything else but idek; if Sam thought something was an issue, I trust that he would take the time to address it. Historically, he's been pretty good about that. So idek idekkkk.

Oh, and since you mentioned it, and you want to hear my thoughts on all the episodes (YOU’RE IN TROUBLE NOW) ;-) … about Yellow Fever. What were your feelings about that one? I’m interested in what fandom thought, too, because “divided and fervent” pretty much describes how *I* feel about it, and I wonder if my reasons are like others’.

Because OH MY GOD, they ROAD DRAGGED A MENTALLY CHALLENGED GUY TO DEATH, when he was THE GOOD GUY WHO WAS WRONGFULLY MURDERED. Hmmm, he was killed in a horrible way and that’s what created all this horror and fear? LET’S SOLVE IT BY DOING IT AGAIN! It’s funny; in my memory the ghost was a black man, I guess because that would be the only possible way it could have been more offensive. I looked on the Superwiki page and saw that he was white. Frankly, I don’t know how the hell that got away with that ending. Did other fans object? I get that Sam and Dean didn’t LIKE doing it, but… wow. Really one of the worst moments on Supernatural ever. It left me with a terrible feeling. Also, the writers could have come up with a better solution. Would it not be possible to… OH I DON’T KNOW—make his fears BETTER in some way? Find some other way to put him to rest? The episode tried to say that road-dragging him was their only option, but didn’t do a good job of it IMO. JUST NO. There should’ve been a better solution.

Too bad, because the earlier part of the episode had some absolutely hysterical moments. Getting to see Jensen really explore comic acting was really fun. It started off as a potentially great episode! There was even some good serious stuff, too; explorations of the brothers’ relationship, a view into Dean’s fears. Then the end ruined it for me, so I couldn’t watch the episode again.

What did you think?

I don't really have any strong feelings about this episode one way or the other, though I distinctly remember it making me feel extraordinarily anxious when watching it, and when I rewatched it the other week for

hoodie_time purposes, I felt the exact same thing all over again. I don't know what they did, but whatever it was, they managed to pull of that aspect of the narrative crazy well. But I felt like Sam in this episode was like, the funniest thing in the world. XDD I realize he wasn't the main point but I CAN'T THOUGH. HIS FACES. The whole time he was just like "what even. what." Awwww.

(Dean) fandom is divided and fervent about this episode because on one hand, people thought it was really funny, and Eye of the Tiger, and H/C, etc. But then other people found it really upsetting because it was making light of the trauma Dean experienced in Hell by pairing it with something to silly and offering him zero sympathy from Sam and Bobby. (Sam and Bobby don't know at that point, no, but I guess it was more that fans took issue with the writers for not having them give something, I guess. I don't have any issues with that, though.) Or really with Dean's trauma not being addressed, or being treated flippantly--I guess this is similar to me in terms of Sam fandom and Sam's clown phobia in 7x18. I honesty think a lot of what happens to the Winchesters is a bigger deal to fandom than it is to them--or I guess, a different deal, processed very differently than fandom seems to assume it must. I'm not sure if anyone else had an issue with the treatment of the ghost!

But personally, I didn't see a whole lot of difference between 4x06 and the way the Winchesters deal with most of their cases--even ghost cases. Gay love may have saved the day in 3x13, but even from the pilot I think a pretty large proportion of their ghost handlings have tended toward the more gruesome side. Sure, the Woman in White was actively going around killing people and the ghos tin 4x06 wasn't actually doing anything but propagate a virus, but when it comes to vengeful spirits, I feel like questions of agency really aren't on the table any more--not having any control over what they're doing is the definition of a vengeful sprit, right? So Constance Welch's ghost wasn't any more evil than the man in 4x06 was. I mean, in the end it comes down to exigency, and that's played out ugly for the Winchesters probably more often than not--especially if there's a definite time limit they need to play against. Their track record with these things is disturbing to say the least--I mean, in the first handful of episode alone they terrorized a ghost by forcing her to face her grief and guilt in the form of the ghosts of her drowned children, burned to death something that used to be a scared, hungry, desperate human, eliminated an evil spirit by letting it exact revenge on a dude, and terrorized yet another ghost by forcing her to face herself in the mirror.

Not that I don't think there are different nuances to these things--7x03/7x07/7x13 harp on this pretty sharply (...finally, XD) but for me I didn't really feel like it was off their norm. Not that that absolves what happened, I mean. But I do think that the way SPN handles these things has made me a lot more conscious of the higher moral accountability of lots of other "crime" fighters in other shows, aha. Which is sometimes lovely and refreshing and other times just feels far too manicured to be likely. There's definitely an ambivalence to contend with, absolutely.

I loved that episode, but I've been too scared to say so! (I also thought "Bitten" was brilliant *runs away*) Anyway, I have to come back later to read this discussion properly.

As you can see from my raving in this thread, you are not alone! And Bitten!!! FANS DIDN'T LIKE THAT ONE??? (I avoided reading about S8 cuz I didn't watch it until the DVDs came out). It was brilliant! One of my very favorite eps of S8. When I saw it, I was like "oh, this is gonna be a great season!" They really pushed the artistry to brilliant, whole new levels with that one. I LOVED it.

I LOVED Bitten!! We should gush over that one together, too!!

I haven't seen it yet (trying to get my friend around for Monday because she's a massive Wizard of Oz fan so it'd be nice to geek together - she finds Supernatural too scary generally) but it seems to be quite polarising from what is on my flist. You either love it or loathe it.

Next week's looks kind of cool. I'm looking forward to some classic Jackles overacting a la Yellow Fever. I think concepts and moments people loved earlier on are now making people annoyed now, but I think it's all still pretty cool.

Having survived the tail end of X Files after watching it from the second season on, I think Supernatural is doing damn good where it is. It could be a hell of a lot worse!

So true! That's part of what made me fall absolutely in love with it--I kept trying to brace myself for its starting to suck (as early as S3), because VIRTUALLY EVERY OTHER SHOW DOES within ~4 years, and when I got to S7 and it was just as good, I'm in awe.

I'm looking forward to some classic Jackles overacting a la Yellow Fever.

Ooh, that sounds good! I hope it's like that. Jackles can pull it off, to be sure. Let's hope for more Yellow Fever and less Man's Best Friend ....

Watching it with an Oz-loving friend sounds like fun! I hope she can make it.

I've only watched bits of Man's Best Friend.

This ep I really want to see Sam getting all gooey at dog!Dean, since Sam does love dogs so much. But seriously, it sounds like they've been reading fanfic!

The ep preview cracked me up! I've watched it at least 10 times. For some reason, I don't think it will suck, if only for Jensen acting like a complete loon. Nobody does it better.

Do you think Dean whined, "I wanna be possessed too!"? Pun intended.

Aaaaaand, now I'm spoiled. :-(. Waaah.

I think the only way to avoid being spoiled by what's already aired (even previews) is to avoid the internet entirely!

Yes, but that requires (gasp) willpower!

/SCREWS EYES SHUT

Once we get past 9x05 I'll be officially 100% unspoiled for everything that comes next, and you better believe I'm going to do everyyyyyything in my power to keep it that way! I haven't been this unspoiled since like, S5. I feel so clean \O/

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

9.04, or, the writers are even shipping Men of Letters from the 1930s!

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DABB - LOFFLIN ARE GODS AMONG MEN

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Putting on our SPN pants one leg at a time

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Re: DABB - LOFFLIN ARE GODS AMONG MEN

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Plucky Pennywhistle IS magical!

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Also, Yellow Fever

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